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Manufacturing Consent - subtitles (htmlized)
These subtitles are easy to download from the web -
from not-very-official channels - but I wanted to
have them online for debates and other activities
that we organized during the strike of Brazilian
federal universities in 2012, and for this.
Please buy the DVD from Zeitgeist Films.
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Subtitles downloaded from www.OpenSubtitles.org
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(Camera clicks)
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Three, two, one, take two.
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Good morning.
Welcome to Erin Mills town centre.
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Home of the world's largest, permanent,
point-of-purchase video wall installation.
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My name is Kelvin Flook
and I'm your video host all day here at EMTV.
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I want to take this opportunity to extend
a special and warm welcome
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to the film crew from Necessary Illusions.
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We've got an excellent line-up
of television programming today,
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so... let's get on with it.
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So, how long have they been working
on this documentary?
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Gosh, they've been working on it
I don't know how long.
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Every country I show up, they're always there.
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They're in England, they're in Japan.
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All over the place.
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MILLER: Jesus.
CHOMSKY: They must have 500 hours of tape.
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MILLER: Bet they put together a really doozy
when they're done, huh?
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CHOMSKY: I can't imagine who's going to want
to hear somebody talk for an hour.
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But I guess they know what they're doing.
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So, where are you all from?
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ALL: Florida.
- Florida?
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ALL: Yeah, Gulf Coast.
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You all talk like in chorus.
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We're making a film about Noam Chomsky.
Does anybody know who Noam Chomsky is?
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ALL: No!
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(Whistle blows)
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MILLER: Good aternoon and welcome
to Wyoming Talks.
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My guest today is well-known intellectual
Noam Chomsky.
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Thank you for being on our programme today.
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CHOMSKY: Very glad to be here.
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I know probably the main purpose for your trip
to Wyoming
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is to discuss thought control
in a democratic society.
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Now, all right, say I'm just Jane USA.
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And I say, "Well, gee, this is a democratic
society, what do you mean - thought control?"
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"I make up my own mind.
I create my own destiny".
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What would you say to her?
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Well, I would suggest that Jane take
a close look at the way the media operate,
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the way the public relations industry operates.
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The extensive thinking that's been going on
for a long, long period,
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about the necessity for finding ways
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to marginalise and control the public
in a democratic society.
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But particularly to look at the evidence
that's been accumulated,
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about the way the major media,
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The agenda-setting media,
I mean, the national press,
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and the television and so on,
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the way that they shape and control
the kinds of opinions that appear.
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The kinds of information that comes through,
the sources to which they go.
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I think Jane will find some very surprising things
about the democratic system.
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BAUSLAUGH: I'd like to welcome all of you
to this lecture today.
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Several years ago,
Professor Chomsky was described
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in The New York Times Book Review
as follows:
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"Judged in terms of the power, range, novelty
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and influence of this thought, Noam Chomsky is
arguably the most important intellectual alive."
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Professor Noam Chomsky.
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(Audience applauds)
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I gather there are some people
behind that blackness there.
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But if I don't look you in the eye, it's because
I don't see you, all I see is the blackness.
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Perhaps I ought to begin
by reporting something that's never read.
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The line about "arguably the most important
intellectual in the world," and so on
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comes from a publisher's blurb
and you got to watch those.
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If you go back to the original,
you'll find that that sentence is actually there.
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This is in The New York Times.
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But the next sentence is,
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"Since that's the case, how can he write such
terrible things about American foreign policy?"
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They never quote that part.
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If it wasn't for that second sentence, I'd begin
to think that I'm doing something wrong.
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And I'm not joking about that.
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It's true that the Emperor doesn't have
any clothes but he doesn't like to be told it.
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The Emperor's lap dogs, like The New York
Times, will not enjoy the experience if you do.
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Good evening. I'm Bill Moyers.
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What's more dangerous:
The big stick of the big lie?
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Governments have used both
against their own people.
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Tonight I'll be talking with a man
who has been thinking about
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how we can see the developing lie.
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He says that propaganda is to democracy
what violence is to a dictatorship.
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But he hasn't lost faith in the power of
common people to speak up for the truth.
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You have said that we live
entangled in webs of endless deceit,
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that we live in a highly indoctrinated society,
where elementary truths are easily buried.
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Elementary truths such as...
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Such as the fact
that we invaded South Vietnam.
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Or that we're standing in the way of significant,
and have for years,
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of significant moves towards arms negotiation.
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Or the fact that the military system
is to a substantial extent,
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not totally, but to a substantial extent,
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a mechanism by which the general population
is compelled to provide a subsidy
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to high-technology industry.
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Since they're not going to do it if you ask them
to, you have to deceive them into doing it.
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There are many truths like that.
We don't face them.
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Do you believe in common sense?
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Absolutely.
I believe in Cartesian common sense.
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I think people have the capacities to see
through the deceit in which they're ensnared.
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But you got to make the effort.
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It seems a little incongruous
to hear a man from the ivory tower
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of Massachusetts Institute of Technology,
a scholar... a distinguished linguistics scholar,
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talk about common people
with such appreciation.
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I think scholarship, at least the field I work in,
has the opposite consequences.
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My own studies in language and human
cognition demonstrate to me, at least,
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what remarkable creativity
ordinary people have.
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The very fact that people talk to one another
just in a normal way, nothing particularly fancy,
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reflects deep-seated features
of human creativity,
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which separate human beings
from any other biological system we know.
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TV: Tonight, scientists talk to the animals.
But are they talking back?
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(Chimp shrieks)
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The Journal with Barbara Frum
and Mary Lou Finlay.
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Communicating with animals
is a serious scientific pursuit.
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This is Nim Chimpsky.
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Nim, jokingly named ater
the great linguist Noam Chomsky,
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was the great hope of animal communication
in the 1970s.
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For four years Pettito and others coached him
in sign language,
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but in the end they decided it was a lost cause.
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Nim could ask for things, but not much more.
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PETITO: I would have loved
to have a conversation with Nim
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and understand how he looked at the universe.
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He failed to communicate that information to
me, and we gave him every opportunity.
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STEINBERG: Noam Chomsky,
theorist of language and political activist,
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has had an extraordinary career.
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I can think of none like it in recent American
history and few anywhere any time.
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He has literally transformed
the subject of linguistics.
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He also has become one of the most consistent
critics of power politics in all its protean guises.
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Scholar and propagandist, his two careers
apparently reinforce each other.
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In 1957, he published his Syntactic Structures,
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which began what has frequently been called
the Chomskyan Revolution in Linguistics.
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Like a latter-day Copernicus,
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Chomsky proposed a radically new way
of looking at the theory of grammar.
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Chomsky worked out the formal rules
of the universal grammar
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which had generated the specific rules
of actual or natural languages.
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The general approach I'm taking seems to me
rather simple minded and unsophisticated,
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but, nevertheless, correct.
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Later he came to argue that such systems
are innate features of human beings.
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They belong to the characteristics
of the species
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and have been, in effect, programmed
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into the genetic equipment of the mind
like the machine language in a computer.
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One needn't be interested in this question.
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Of course, I am interested in it.
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The interesting question from this point of view
is what is the nature of the initial state?
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That is, what is human nature in this respect?
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That in turn explains the...
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...astonishing.
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Try the next one.
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Fa-cki-li-ty
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- Facility.
- Facility.
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STEINBERG: That in turn explains the
astonishing facility children have
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in learning the rules of natural language,
no matter how complicated, incredibly quickly,
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from what are imperfect
and oten degenerate samples.
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- Compli...
- Complicated.
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It's a complicated word.
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Do you know what "complicated" means?
It means it's complicated.
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CHOMSKY:
If in fact our minds were a blank slate
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and experience wrote on them, we would be
very impoverished creatures indeed,
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so the obvious hypothesis is that our language
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is the result of the unfolding
of a genetically determined programme.
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Well, plainly there are different languages.
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In fact, the apparent variation of languages
is quite superficial.
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It's certain - as certain as anything else is -
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that humans are not genetically programmed
to learn one or another language.
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So, you bring up a Japanese baby in Boston,
and it'll speak Boston English.
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You bring up my child in Japan,
it'll speak Japanese.
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And that means that... From that it fol...
from that it simply follows by logic
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that the basic structure of the languages
must be essentially the same.
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Our task as scientists is to try to determine
exactly what those fundamental principles are
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that cause the knowledge of language to unfold
in the manner in which it does
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under particular circumstances.
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Incidentally,
I think there is no doubt the same must be true
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of other aspects of human intelligence,
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and systems of understanding
and interpretation,
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and moral and aesthetic judgement, and so on.
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STEINBERG: The implications of these views
have washed over the fields of psychology,
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education, sociology, philosophy,
literary criticism, and logic.
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RÉE: In the '50s and '60s
the bridge between your theoretical work
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and your political work seems to have been
the attack on behaviourism,
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but now behaviourism is no longer an issue,
or so it seems,
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so how does this leave the link
between your linguistics and your politics?
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Well, I've always regarded the link... I've never...
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really perceived much of a link,
to tell you the truth.
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Again, I would be very pleased to be able to
discover intellectually convincing connections
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between my own anarchist convictions
on the one hand,
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and what I think I can demonstrate,
or at least begin to see
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about the nature of human intelligence
on the other.
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But I simply can't find intellectually satisfying
connections between those two domains.
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I can discover some tenuous points of contact.
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FOUCAULT (in French)
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If it is correct, as I believe it is,
that a fundamental element of human nature
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is the need for creative work,
or creative inquiry for...
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...for free creation without the...
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...arbitrary, limiting effects of coercive
institutions,
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then of course it will follow that a decent society
should maximise the possibilities
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for this fundamental human characteristic
to be realised.
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Now, a federated, decentralised...
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...system of free associations incorporating
economic as well as social institutions
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would be what I refer to as
anarcho-syndicalism,
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and it seems to me that
it is the appropriate form of social organisation
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for an advanced technological society
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in which human beings do not have to be forced
into the position of tools, of cogs in a machine.
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STEINBERG: Since the 1960s
Noam Chomsky has been the voice
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of a very characteristic brand
of rationalist libertarian socialism.
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He's attacked the abuses of power
wherever he saw them,
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he's made himself deeply unpopular
by his criticism of American policy,
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the subservience of the intelligentsia,
the degradation of Zionism,
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the distortions of media,
and self-delusions of prevailing ideologies.
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CHOMSKY:
Under the liberal administration of the 1960s
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the club of academic intellectuals
designed and implemented the Vietnam war,
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and other similar, though smaller, actions.
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This particular community is a very relevant one
to consider at a place like MIT
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because of course you're all free
to enter into this community.
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In fact,
you're invited and encouraged to enter it.
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The community of technical intelligentsia,
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and weapons designers,
and counter-insurgency experts,
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and pragmatic planners of an American empire,
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is one that you have a great deal of inducement
to become associated with.
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The inducements, in fact, are very real.
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The rewards in power, and affluence,
and prestige, and authority...
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Jamie?
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This came with the mail.
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Be with you in a second.
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Oh, God, they've still got their cameras.
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OK?
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We'll start.
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In your essay Language and Freedom,
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you write, "Social action must be animated
by a vision of a future society".
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I was wondering what vision of a future society
animates you?
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I have my own ideas
as to what a future society should look like.
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I've written about them.
I mean, I think that we should...
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At the most general level, we should be
seeking out forms of authority and domination,
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and challenging their legitimacy.
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Sometimes they are legitimate -
that is, let's say they're needed for survival.
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00:16:32,647 --> 00:16:38,916
So, for example, I wouldn't suggest
that during the Second World War...
227
00:16:38,967 --> 00:16:42,243
the forms of authority...
We had a totalitarian society, basically.
228
00:16:42,287 --> 00:16:45,643
I thought there was some justification for that
under wartime conditions.
229
00:16:45,687 --> 00:16:47,678
And there are other forms of...
230
00:16:47,727 --> 00:16:51,925
Relations between parents and children,
for example, involve forms of coercion
231
00:16:51,967 --> 00:16:53,958
which are sometimes justifiable.
232
00:16:54,007 --> 00:16:58,797
But any such... Any form of coercion and...
233
00:16:58,847 --> 00:17:02,840
control requires justification,
and most of them are completely unjustifiable.
234
00:17:02,887 --> 00:17:08,405
Now, at various stages of human civilisation
it's been possible to challenge some of them,
235
00:17:08,447 --> 00:17:09,800
but not others.
236
00:17:09,847 --> 00:17:13,078
Others are too deep-seated,
or you don't see them, or whatever,
237
00:17:13,127 --> 00:17:19,043
so at any particular point you try to
detect those forms of authority and domination
238
00:17:20,047 --> 00:17:24,165
which are subject to change, and which...
239
00:17:24,207 --> 00:17:25,765
do not have any legitimacy,
240
00:17:25,807 --> 00:17:28,401
in fact which oten
strike at fundamental human rights,
241
00:17:28,447 --> 00:17:32,076
and your understanding
of fundamental human nature and rights.
242
00:17:32,127 --> 00:17:34,277
Well, what are the major things, say today?
243
00:17:34,327 --> 00:17:36,921
There are some
that are being addressed in a way.
244
00:17:38,247 --> 00:17:42,399
The feminist movement is addressing some.
The civil rights movement is addressing others.
245
00:17:42,447 --> 00:17:44,961
The one major one
that is not being seriously addressed
246
00:17:45,007 --> 00:17:47,919
is the one that's really
at the core of the system of domination,
247
00:17:47,967 --> 00:17:50,959
and that's private control over resources.
248
00:17:51,007 --> 00:17:55,364
And that means an attack
on the fundamental structure of state capitalism.
249
00:17:55,407 --> 00:17:58,956
I think that's in order.
That's not something far off in the future.
250
00:17:59,487 --> 00:18:01,478
VOICEOVER: Your life work.
251
00:18:03,007 --> 00:18:05,601
The alphabet has only 26 letters.
252
00:18:06,207 --> 00:18:09,005
With these 26 magic symbols, however,
253
00:18:09,047 --> 00:18:11,322
millions of words are written every day.
254
00:18:13,127 --> 00:18:15,118
Nowhere else are people so addicted
255
00:18:15,167 --> 00:18:18,239
to information and entertainment
via the printed word.
256
00:18:19,287 --> 00:18:22,359
Every day the world comes thumping
on the American doorstep,
257
00:18:22,407 --> 00:18:24,637
and nothing that happens anywhere
258
00:18:24,687 --> 00:18:28,282
remains long a secret
from the American newspaper reader.
259
00:18:29,327 --> 00:18:32,205
It comes to us pretty casually, the daily paper,
260
00:18:32,247 --> 00:18:34,317
but behind its arrival on your doorstep
261
00:18:34,367 --> 00:18:36,756
is one ofjournalism's major stories.
262
00:18:36,807 --> 00:18:38,206
How it got there.
263
00:18:41,007 --> 00:18:48,800
There is a standard view about democratic
societies, and the role of the media within them.
264
00:18:48,847 --> 00:18:52,635
It's expressed for example
by Supreme Court Justice Powell
265
00:18:52,687 --> 00:18:56,043
when he spoke of the crucial role of the media
266
00:18:56,087 --> 00:18:59,682
in effecting the societal purpose
of the First Amendment,
267
00:18:59,727 --> 00:19:05,597
namely enabling the public to assert
meaningful control over the political process.
268
00:19:07,367 --> 00:19:10,598
That kind of formulation
expresses the understanding that
269
00:19:10,647 --> 00:19:17,280
democracy requires free access
to information, and ideas, and opinion,
270
00:19:17,327 --> 00:19:22,845
and the same conceptions hold
not only with regard to the media,
271
00:19:22,887 --> 00:19:28,803
but with regard to educational institutions,
publishing, the intellectual community generally.
272
00:19:31,607 --> 00:19:33,916
NARRATOR:
It is basic to the health of a democracy
273
00:19:33,967 --> 00:19:37,926
that no phase of government activity
escape the scrutiny of the press.
274
00:19:37,967 --> 00:19:43,485
Here reporters are assigned to stories
fateful not only to our nation, but to all nations.
275
00:19:43,527 --> 00:19:45,757
"Congress", says the First Amendment,
276
00:19:45,807 --> 00:19:48,401
"shall pass no law
abridging the freedom of the press".
277
00:19:48,447 --> 00:19:52,565
And the Chief Executive himself
throws open the doors of the White House
278
00:19:52,607 --> 00:19:56,316
to journalists representing papers
of all shades of political opinion.
279
00:20:01,447 --> 00:20:05,918
But is worth bearing in mind
that there is a contrary view,
280
00:20:05,967 --> 00:20:10,245
and in fact the contrary view is very widely held,
and deeply rooted
281
00:20:10,287 --> 00:20:12,278
in our own civilisation.
282
00:20:13,287 --> 00:20:16,882
It goes back to
the origins of modern democracy,
283
00:20:16,927 --> 00:20:19,964
to the 17th-century English revolution
284
00:20:20,007 --> 00:20:23,920
which was a complicated affair
like most popular revolutions.
285
00:20:23,967 --> 00:20:26,356
There was a struggle between Parliament
286
00:20:26,407 --> 00:20:30,195
representing largely
elements of the gentry and the merchants,
287
00:20:30,247 --> 00:20:33,159
and the Royalists
representing other elite groups,
288
00:20:33,207 --> 00:20:34,959
and they fought it out.
289
00:20:35,007 --> 00:20:36,759
But like many popular revolutions,
290
00:20:36,807 --> 00:20:41,005
there was also a lot of popular ferment going
that was opposed to all of them.
291
00:20:41,047 --> 00:20:44,403
There were popular movements
that were questioning everything -
292
00:20:44,447 --> 00:20:49,157
the relations between master and servant,
the right of authority altogether...
293
00:20:49,207 --> 00:20:51,402
All kinds of things were being questioned.
294
00:20:51,447 --> 00:20:55,725
There was a lot of radical publishing - the
printing presses had just come into existence -
295
00:20:55,767 --> 00:20:59,396
and this disturbed all the elites
on both sides of the Civil War.
296
00:20:59,447 --> 00:21:04,521
So as one historian pointed out at the time
in 1660...
297
00:21:04,567 --> 00:21:06,603
He criticised the radical democrats,
298
00:21:06,647 --> 00:21:09,445
the ones who were calling for
what we would call democracy, because...
299
00:21:19,887 --> 00:21:24,278
Now, underlying these doctrines
which were very widely held
300
00:21:24,327 --> 00:21:26,443
is a certain conception of democracy.
301
00:21:26,487 --> 00:21:28,717
It's a game for elites.
302
00:21:28,767 --> 00:21:30,962
It's not for the ignorant masses
303
00:21:31,007 --> 00:21:35,080
who have to be marginalised,
diverted and controlled
304
00:21:35,127 --> 00:21:37,118
of course, for their own good.
305
00:21:37,167 --> 00:21:42,036
The same principles were upheld
in the American colonies.
306
00:21:42,087 --> 00:21:46,558
The dictum of the founding fathers
of American democracy that:
307
00:21:46,607 --> 00:21:49,917
"People who own the country
ought to govern it",
308
00:21:49,967 --> 00:21:51,958
quoting John Jay.
309
00:21:52,007 --> 00:21:54,316
MAN: Fire!
(Gunfire and screaming)
310
00:21:54,367 --> 00:21:56,164
(Military band plays)
311
00:21:56,247 --> 00:21:58,238
(Gunfire)
312
00:22:00,927 --> 00:22:03,236
Now, in modern times for elites,
313
00:22:03,287 --> 00:22:08,156
this contrary view about the intellectual life,
and the media, and so on,
314
00:22:08,207 --> 00:22:13,520
this contrary view in fact is the standard one,
I think, apart from rhetorical flourishes.
315
00:22:16,167 --> 00:22:20,604
SIKOROVSKY: From Washington DC,
he is intellectual, author and linguist
316
00:22:20,647 --> 00:22:22,638
Professor Noam Chomsky.
317
00:22:22,687 --> 00:22:27,283
Manufacturing Consent -
what is that title meant to describe?
318
00:22:27,327 --> 00:22:34,438
Well, the title is actually borrowed from a book
by Walter Lippmann written back around 1921
319
00:22:34,487 --> 00:22:38,162
in which he described
what he called the manufacture of consent
320
00:22:38,207 --> 00:22:41,882
as a revolution in the practice of democracy.
321
00:22:41,927 --> 00:22:45,124
What it amounts to is a technique of control,
322
00:22:45,167 --> 00:22:48,318
and he said this was useful and necessary
323
00:22:48,367 --> 00:22:53,805
because the common interests, the general
concerns of all people, elude the public.
324
00:22:53,847 --> 00:22:56,202
The public just isn't up to dealing with them,
325
00:22:56,247 --> 00:22:59,956
and they have to be the domain
of what he called a specialized class.
326
00:23:01,487 --> 00:23:05,924
Notice that that's the opposite
of the standard view about democracy.
327
00:23:06,887 --> 00:23:12,564
There's a version of this expressed
by the highly respected moralist and theologian
328
00:23:12,607 --> 00:23:14,086
Reinhold Niebuhr
329
00:23:14,127 --> 00:23:18,518
who was very influential
on contemporary policy makers.
330
00:23:18,567 --> 00:23:22,480
His view was
that rationality belongs to the cool observer,
331
00:23:23,327 --> 00:23:29,038
but because of the stupidity of the average
man, he follows not reason but faith,
332
00:23:29,887 --> 00:23:35,086
and this naïve faith
requires necessary illusion
333
00:23:36,007 --> 00:23:39,044
and emotionally potent over-simplifications
334
00:23:39,087 --> 00:23:43,478
which are provided by the myth maker
to keep the ordinary person on course.
335
00:23:51,407 --> 00:23:53,967
It's not the case, as the naïve might think,
336
00:23:54,007 --> 00:23:56,999
that indoctrination
is inconsistent with democracy.
337
00:23:57,047 --> 00:24:00,119
Rather, as this whole line of thinkers observes,
338
00:24:00,167 --> 00:24:01,885
it's the essence of democracy.
339
00:24:03,527 --> 00:24:07,122
The point is that in a military state,
or a feudal state,
340
00:24:07,167 --> 00:24:09,727
or what we would nowadays
call a totalitarian state,
341
00:24:09,767 --> 00:24:12,076
it doesn't much matter what people think,
342
00:24:12,127 --> 00:24:16,518
because you've got a bludgeon over their head,
and you can control what they do.
343
00:24:16,567 --> 00:24:17,966
(Crowd chants)
344
00:24:18,007 --> 00:24:22,398
But when the state loses the bludgeon,
when you can't control people by force,
345
00:24:22,447 --> 00:24:25,007
and when the voice of the people can be heard,
346
00:24:25,047 --> 00:24:29,120
you have this problem -
it may make people so curious and so arrogant
347
00:24:29,167 --> 00:24:32,716
that they don't have the humility
to submit to a civil rule,
348
00:24:32,767 --> 00:24:35,725
and therefore you have to
control what people think.
349
00:24:37,527 --> 00:24:39,165
And the standard way to do this
350
00:24:39,207 --> 00:24:43,644
is to resort to what in more honest days
used to be called propaganda.
351
00:24:43,687 --> 00:24:45,120
Manufacture of consent.
352
00:24:46,127 --> 00:24:48,766
The creation of necessary illusions.
353
00:24:48,807 --> 00:24:51,480
Various ways of
either marginalising the general public,
354
00:24:51,527 --> 00:24:53,916
or reducing them to apathy in some fashion.
355
00:25:13,447 --> 00:25:15,244
(Applause)
356
00:25:28,407 --> 00:25:30,398
(Woman speaking Japanese)
357
00:25:32,927 --> 00:25:34,758
TRANSLATOR: The oldest of two boys,
358
00:25:34,807 --> 00:25:39,756
Avram Noam Chomsky was born in
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in 1928.
359
00:25:40,807 --> 00:25:44,561
As a Jewish child,
the anti-Semitism of the time affected him.
360
00:25:45,607 --> 00:25:49,361
Both parents taught Hebrew,
and he became fascinated by literature,
361
00:25:49,407 --> 00:25:53,195
reading translations
of French and Russian classics.
362
00:25:53,247 --> 00:25:57,035
He also took an interest
in a grammar book written by his father
363
00:25:57,087 --> 00:25:58,839
on Hebrew of the Middle Ages.
364
00:25:59,847 --> 00:26:04,045
He recalls a childhood
absorbed in reading curled up on the sofa,
365
00:26:04,087 --> 00:26:07,682
oten borrowing up to 12 books at once
from the library.
366
00:26:07,727 --> 00:26:11,322
He is married to Carol,
and they have three children.
367
00:26:11,367 --> 00:26:14,439
CHOMSKY: I don't like to
impose on my wife and children a form of life
368
00:26:14,487 --> 00:26:16,842
that they certainly
haven't selected for themselves,
369
00:26:16,887 --> 00:26:20,163
namely one of public exposure,
exposure to the public media.
370
00:26:21,167 --> 00:26:24,682
That's their choice, and I don't believe
they themselves have selected this.
371
00:26:24,727 --> 00:26:28,606
I don't impose it on them,
and I would like to protect them from it, frankly.
372
00:26:28,647 --> 00:26:34,438
The second sort of perhaps principled point
is that I'm rather against the whole notion
373
00:26:34,487 --> 00:26:39,163
of developing public personalities...
374
00:26:40,527 --> 00:26:42,916
...who are treated as stars
of one kind or another,
375
00:26:42,967 --> 00:26:46,482
where aspects of their personal life
are supposed to have some significance.
376
00:26:46,527 --> 00:26:48,279
Take one in the reception room.
377
00:26:49,287 --> 00:26:53,519
WOMAN: You said you were just like us -
you went to school, got good grades.
378
00:26:53,567 --> 00:26:56,035
What made you start being critical, you know,
379
00:26:56,087 --> 00:26:57,918
and seeing the different...
380
00:26:57,967 --> 00:26:59,958
What started the change?
381
00:27:00,007 --> 00:27:03,716
Well, you know, there are all kinds
of personal factors in anybody's life.
382
00:27:03,767 --> 00:27:05,917
Don't forget I grew up in the Depression.
383
00:27:05,967 --> 00:27:07,400
(Tyres squeal)
384
00:27:07,447 --> 00:27:09,438
(Crashing)
385
00:27:23,727 --> 00:27:28,198
My parents actually happened to have jobs,
which was kind of unusual.
386
00:27:28,247 --> 00:27:31,762
They were Hebrew school teachers,
so lower middle class.
387
00:27:31,807 --> 00:27:35,516
For them,
everything revolved around being Jewish.
388
00:27:35,567 --> 00:27:38,877
Hebrew, and Palestine in those days,
and so on.
389
00:27:39,767 --> 00:27:42,804
I grew up in that milieu, so I learned Hebrew,
went to Hebrew school,
390
00:27:42,847 --> 00:27:47,284
became a Hebrew school teacher,
went to Hebrew college, led youth groups,
391
00:27:47,327 --> 00:27:48,760
summer camp, Hebrew camps...
392
00:27:48,807 --> 00:27:50,126
The whole business.
393
00:27:51,407 --> 00:27:55,525
The branch of Zionist movement
that I was part of
394
00:27:55,567 --> 00:27:59,526
was all involved in socialist bi-nationalism,
and Arab-Jewish cooperation,
395
00:27:59,567 --> 00:28:01,683
and all sorts of nice stuff.
396
00:28:06,287 --> 00:28:08,243
(Whistle blows)
397
00:28:14,687 --> 00:28:17,963
BARSAMIAN: What did they think of you
hopping on a train, going up to New York,
398
00:28:18,007 --> 00:28:22,205
and hanging out at anarchist book stores
on Fourth Avenue, and talking to...
399
00:28:22,247 --> 00:28:24,283
CHOMSKY: They didn't mind, because...
400
00:28:24,327 --> 00:28:27,478
I don't want to totally trust
my childhood memories, obviously,
401
00:28:27,527 --> 00:28:29,324
but the family was split up.
402
00:28:29,367 --> 00:28:32,439
Like a lot of Jewish families,
it went in all sorts of directions.
403
00:28:32,487 --> 00:28:35,081
There were sectors that were super-Orthodox.
404
00:28:35,127 --> 00:28:39,518
There were other sectors
that were very radical, and very assimilated,
405
00:28:39,567 --> 00:28:41,364
and working-class intellectuals,
406
00:28:41,407 --> 00:28:45,605
and that's the sector
that I naturally gravitated towards.
407
00:28:45,647 --> 00:28:48,241
It was a very lively intellectual culture.
408
00:28:48,287 --> 00:28:51,802
For one thing, it was a working-class culture,
had working-class values.
409
00:28:51,847 --> 00:28:56,318
Values of solidarity, socialist values, and so on.
410
00:28:56,367 --> 00:28:58,676
There was a sense
somehow things would get better.
411
00:28:58,727 --> 00:29:03,323
An institutional structure was around, a method
of fighting, of organising, of doing things
412
00:29:03,367 --> 00:29:05,039
which had some hope.
413
00:29:05,087 --> 00:29:10,798
And I also had the advantage of having gone
to an experimental progressive school,
414
00:29:10,847 --> 00:29:12,838
to a Deweyite school which was quite good,
415
00:29:12,887 --> 00:29:17,278
run by a university there, and you know,
there was no such thing as competition.
416
00:29:17,327 --> 00:29:19,557
There was no such thing
as being a good student.
417
00:29:21,287 --> 00:29:25,405
Literally, the concept of being a good student
didn't even arise until I got to high school.
418
00:29:25,447 --> 00:29:29,326
I went to the academic high school,
and suddenly discovered I'm a good student.
419
00:29:29,367 --> 00:29:33,280
I hated high school, because I had to do
all the things you have to do to get into college.
420
00:29:33,327 --> 00:29:37,206
But until then,
it was kind of a free, pretty open system,
421
00:29:37,247 --> 00:29:38,965
and lots of other things as well.
422
00:29:39,007 --> 00:29:40,565
Maybe I was just cantankerous.
423
00:29:41,567 --> 00:29:44,161
As a historian,
I have read with interest and amazement
424
00:29:44,207 --> 00:29:47,358
your long review article
of Gabriel Jackson's Spanish Civil War.
425
00:29:47,407 --> 00:29:51,082
It's a very respectable piece of history.
I appreciate how much work goes into it.
426
00:29:51,127 --> 00:29:52,765
You know when I did that work?
427
00:29:52,807 --> 00:29:56,277
I did that work in the early 1940s
when I was about 12 years old.
428
00:30:03,127 --> 00:30:07,803
CHOMSKY: The first article I wrote was right
ater the fall of Barcelona in the school paper,
429
00:30:07,847 --> 00:30:11,886
and it was a lament
about the rise of Fascism in 1939.
430
00:30:15,807 --> 00:30:19,163
I guess one of the people who was
the biggest influence in my life was an uncle
431
00:30:19,207 --> 00:30:24,759
who had never gone past fourth grade,
had a background in crime,
432
00:30:24,807 --> 00:30:27,082
and let-wing politics, and all sorts of things.
433
00:30:28,087 --> 00:30:30,157
But he was a hunchback,
434
00:30:30,207 --> 00:30:33,119
and as a result
he could get a newsstand in New York.
435
00:30:33,167 --> 00:30:37,001
They had some programme
for people with physical disabilities.
436
00:30:37,047 --> 00:30:41,086
Some of you are from New York, I guess.
Well, you know the 72nd Street kiosk?
437
00:30:41,127 --> 00:30:42,640
WOMAN: Yes!
438
00:30:42,687 --> 00:30:45,281
CHOMSKY:
That's where I got my political education.
439
00:30:45,327 --> 00:30:49,718
At 72nd Street - where you come out of the
subway, everybody goes towards 72nd Street.
440
00:30:49,767 --> 00:30:53,237
There were two newsstands on that side
which were doing fine,
441
00:30:53,287 --> 00:30:54,606
and there's two on the back.
442
00:30:54,647 --> 00:30:57,480
Nobody comes out the back,
and that's where his newsstand...
443
00:30:57,527 --> 00:30:59,165
(Laughter)
444
00:31:00,727 --> 00:31:03,799
But it was a very lively place.
He was a very bright guy.
445
00:31:03,847 --> 00:31:06,645
It was the '30s. There were a lot of émigrés.
446
00:31:06,687 --> 00:31:10,202
A lot of people were hanging around there,
and in the evenings especially
447
00:31:10,247 --> 00:31:13,205
it was sort of a literary-political salon.
448
00:31:13,247 --> 00:31:16,398
There were, kind of, guys
hanging around arguing and talking, and...
449
00:31:16,447 --> 00:31:19,007
as a kid, like 11, 12 years old,
450
00:31:19,047 --> 00:31:21,925
the biggest excitement
was to work the newsstand.
451
00:31:25,887 --> 00:31:27,957
You write in Manufacturing Consent
452
00:31:28,007 --> 00:31:31,317
that it's the primary function of the mass media
in the United States
453
00:31:31,367 --> 00:31:34,165
to mobilise public support
for the special interests
454
00:31:34,207 --> 00:31:36,675
that dominate the government
and the private sector.
455
00:31:36,727 --> 00:31:38,638
What are those interests?
456
00:31:38,687 --> 00:31:41,440
Well, if you want to understand
the way any society works,
457
00:31:41,487 --> 00:31:42,806
ours or any other,
458
00:31:42,847 --> 00:31:46,362
the first place to look is who makes...
who is in a position
459
00:31:46,407 --> 00:31:49,717
to make the decisions
that determine the way the society functions.
460
00:31:49,767 --> 00:31:51,803
Societies differ, but in ours
461
00:31:51,847 --> 00:31:55,442
the major decisions
over what happens in the society -
462
00:31:55,487 --> 00:31:58,843
decisions over investment, and production,
and distribution and so on -
463
00:31:58,887 --> 00:32:02,800
are in the hands of
a relatively concentrated network
464
00:32:02,847 --> 00:32:06,840
of major corporations and conglomerates,
and investment firms, and so on.
465
00:32:06,887 --> 00:32:12,166
They are also the ones who staff the major
executive positions in the government,
466
00:32:12,207 --> 00:32:14,482
and they are the ones who own the media,
467
00:32:14,527 --> 00:32:18,076
and they are the ones who have to be
in a position to make the decisions.
468
00:32:18,127 --> 00:32:22,279
They have an overwhelmingly dominant role
in the way life happens,
469
00:32:22,327 --> 00:32:24,443
you know, what's done in the society.
470
00:32:24,487 --> 00:32:28,844
Within the economic system,
by law and in principle, they dominate.
471
00:32:28,887 --> 00:32:33,039
The control over resources,
and the need to satisfy their interests
472
00:32:33,087 --> 00:32:35,123
imposes very sharp constraints
473
00:32:35,167 --> 00:32:38,716
on the political system
and the ideological system.
474
00:32:41,407 --> 00:32:46,879
When we talk about manufacturing of consent,
whose consent is being manufactured?
475
00:32:46,927 --> 00:32:49,202
To start with, there are two different groups.
476
00:32:49,247 --> 00:32:53,081
We can get into more detail,
but at the first level of approximation,
477
00:32:53,127 --> 00:32:55,118
there's two targets for propaganda.
478
00:32:56,127 --> 00:32:58,561
One is what is sometimes called
the political class.
479
00:33:02,447 --> 00:33:05,007
There's maybe 20 per cent of the population
480
00:33:05,047 --> 00:33:08,437
which is relatively educated,
more or less articulate.
481
00:33:08,487 --> 00:33:11,524
They'll play some kind of role
in decision making.
482
00:33:11,567 --> 00:33:14,764
They're supposed to sort of participate
in social life,
483
00:33:14,807 --> 00:33:20,837
either as managers, or cultural managers,
like, say, teachers, and writers, and so on.
484
00:33:20,887 --> 00:33:22,798
They're supposed to vote.
485
00:33:22,847 --> 00:33:28,604
They're supposed to play some role in the way
economic and political and cultural life goes on.
486
00:33:28,647 --> 00:33:30,683
Now, their consent is crucial.
487
00:33:30,727 --> 00:33:34,083
That's one group that has to be
deeply indoctrinated.
488
00:33:34,127 --> 00:33:37,085
Then there's maybe 80 per cent
of the population
489
00:33:37,127 --> 00:33:39,925
whose main function is to follow orders,
490
00:33:39,967 --> 00:33:41,446
and not to think, you know.
491
00:33:41,487 --> 00:33:43,637
Not to pay attention to anything,
492
00:33:43,687 --> 00:33:46,918
and they're the ones who usually pay the costs.
493
00:33:46,967 --> 00:33:49,276
LINVILLE: All right, Professor Chomsky, Noam,
494
00:33:50,767 --> 00:33:56,876
you outlined a model - filters propaganda
is sent through on its way to the public.
495
00:33:56,927 --> 00:33:58,918
Will you briefly outline those?
496
00:33:58,967 --> 00:34:02,243
CHOMSKY: It's basically an institutional
analysis of the major media,
497
00:34:02,287 --> 00:34:04,278
what we call a propaganda model.
498
00:34:04,327 --> 00:34:09,720
We're talking primarily about the national
media, those media that set a general agenda
499
00:34:09,767 --> 00:34:11,917
that others more or less adhere to,
500
00:34:11,967 --> 00:34:17,519
to the extent that they even pay much attention
to national or international affairs.
501
00:34:17,567 --> 00:34:20,718
Now, the elite media are the sort of
agenda-setting media.
502
00:34:20,767 --> 00:34:22,758
The New York Times, The Washington Post,
503
00:34:22,807 --> 00:34:25,275
the major television channels, and so on.
504
00:34:26,287 --> 00:34:28,278
They set the general framework.
505
00:34:29,087 --> 00:34:32,477
Local media more or less adapt
to their structure.
506
00:34:32,527 --> 00:34:34,324
(Phone rings)
507
00:34:35,127 --> 00:34:36,162
World news.
508
00:34:37,807 --> 00:34:40,685
DIRECTOR: It's a sound bite,
that says there's a beach head...
509
00:34:40,727 --> 00:34:42,718
I think 628 is a good one.
510
00:34:44,767 --> 00:34:46,962
This is the operative sound bite for us.
511
00:34:48,567 --> 00:34:50,159
Got a minute for all the times.
512
00:34:51,007 --> 00:34:52,406
I love this sound bite.
513
00:34:52,447 --> 00:34:55,245
CHOMSKY:
And they do this in all sorts of ways, by...
514
00:35:05,407 --> 00:35:07,921
FLOOR DIRECTOR:
Two and a half minutes to air.
515
00:35:09,767 --> 00:35:11,564
45 seconds.
516
00:35:21,127 --> 00:35:25,279
There is an unusual amount of attention today
on the five nations of Central America.
517
00:35:25,327 --> 00:35:27,841
NARRATOR: This is democracy's diary.
518
00:35:27,887 --> 00:35:31,004
Here, for our instruction,
are triumphs and disasters,
519
00:35:31,047 --> 00:35:33,959
the pattern of life's changing fabric.
520
00:35:34,007 --> 00:35:38,603
Here is great journalism,
a revelation of the past, a guide to the present,
521
00:35:38,647 --> 00:35:40,319
and a clue to the future.
522
00:35:48,727 --> 00:35:50,718
(Growls)
523
00:35:57,127 --> 00:36:01,678
The New York Times is certainly the most
important newspaper in the United States,
524
00:36:01,727 --> 00:36:05,242
and one could argue,
the most important newspaper in the world.
525
00:36:06,407 --> 00:36:12,004
The New York Times plays an enormous role
in shaping the perception of the current world
526
00:36:12,047 --> 00:36:15,596
on the part of
the politically active, educated classes.
527
00:36:15,647 --> 00:36:18,036
Also, The New York Times has a special role,
528
00:36:18,087 --> 00:36:21,636
and I believe its editors probably feel
that they bear a heavy burden
529
00:36:21,687 --> 00:36:25,965
in the sense that
The New York Times creates history.
530
00:36:26,007 --> 00:36:29,443
NARRATOR: What happened years ago may
have a bearing on what happens tomorrow.
531
00:36:29,487 --> 00:36:33,196
Millions of clippings
are preserved in the Times'library,
532
00:36:33,247 --> 00:36:35,238
all indexed for instant use.
533
00:36:35,287 --> 00:36:38,484
A priceless archive of events,
and the men who make them.
534
00:36:39,647 --> 00:36:42,844
CHOMSKY: That is, history is what appears in
The New York Times archives.
535
00:36:42,887 --> 00:36:46,357
The place where people will go to find out
what happened is The New York Times.
536
00:36:46,407 --> 00:36:50,958
Therefore it's extremely important,
if history is to be shaped in an appropriate way,
537
00:36:51,007 --> 00:36:56,081
that certain things appear, certain things do not,
certain questions be asked, others be ignored,
538
00:36:56,127 --> 00:36:59,358
and that issues be framed
in a particular fashion.
539
00:36:59,407 --> 00:37:03,446
Now, in whose interests
is history being so shaped?
540
00:37:03,487 --> 00:37:06,524
Well, I think that's not very difficult to answer.
541
00:37:06,567 --> 00:37:09,957
MEYER: The process by which
people make up their minds on this
542
00:37:10,007 --> 00:37:12,282
is a much more mysterious process
543
00:37:12,327 --> 00:37:16,115
than you would ever guess
from reading Manufacturing Consent.
544
00:37:16,167 --> 00:37:18,203
There is a saying about legislation,
545
00:37:18,247 --> 00:37:20,556
that legislation is like making sausage.
546
00:37:21,727 --> 00:37:26,437
The less you know about how it's done,
the better for your appetite.
547
00:37:26,487 --> 00:37:28,045
The same is true of this business.
548
00:37:28,087 --> 00:37:31,636
If you're in a conference
in which decisions are being made
549
00:37:31,687 --> 00:37:33,803
on what to put on page one, or what not,
550
00:37:33,847 --> 00:37:39,922
you would get, I think, the impression
that important decisions were being made
551
00:37:39,967 --> 00:37:42,037
in a flippant and frivolous way,
552
00:37:42,087 --> 00:37:46,046
but in fact, given the pressures of time
to try to get things out,
553
00:37:46,087 --> 00:37:48,078
you resort to a kind of a shorthand,
554
00:37:48,127 --> 00:37:51,915
and you have to fill that paper up every day.
555
00:37:52,767 --> 00:37:55,600
It's curious in a kind of a mirror image way that
556
00:37:55,647 --> 00:37:59,845
Professor Chomsky is in total accord
with Reed Irvine
557
00:37:59,887 --> 00:38:04,881
who at the right-wing end of the spectrum
says exactly what Chomsky does
558
00:38:04,927 --> 00:38:10,320
about the insinuating influence of the press,
of the big media
559
00:38:10,367 --> 00:38:15,964
as "agenda setters", to use
one of the great buzz words of the time,
560
00:38:16,007 --> 00:38:20,159
and, of course,
Reed Irvine sees this as a let-wing conspiracy,
561
00:38:20,207 --> 00:38:24,803
of foisting liberal ideas in both domestic
and foreign affairs on the American people.
562
00:38:24,847 --> 00:38:28,237
But in both cases,
I think that the premise really is an insult
563
00:38:28,287 --> 00:38:31,120
to the intelligence of the people
who consume news.
564
00:38:31,167 --> 00:38:37,436
Now, to eliminate confusion, all of this has
nothing to do with liberal or conservative bias.
565
00:38:37,487 --> 00:38:42,038
According to the propaganda model, both
liberal and conservative wings of the media,
566
00:38:42,087 --> 00:38:44,078
whatever those terms are supposed to mean,
567
00:38:44,127 --> 00:38:47,563
fall within the same framework of assumptions.
568
00:38:47,607 --> 00:38:53,557
In fact, if the system functions well, it ought
to have a liberal bias, or at least appear to,
569
00:38:53,607 --> 00:38:56,405
because if it appears to have a liberal bias,
570
00:38:56,447 --> 00:38:59,519
that will serve to bound thought
even more effectively.
571
00:38:59,567 --> 00:39:04,766
In other words, if the press is indeed adversarial
and liberal, and all these bad things,
572
00:39:04,807 --> 00:39:06,798
then how can I go beyond it?
573
00:39:06,847 --> 00:39:11,045
They're already so extreme in their opposition
to power that to go beyond it
574
00:39:11,087 --> 00:39:13,078
would be to take off from the planet,
575
00:39:13,127 --> 00:39:16,005
so therefore it must be that the presuppositions
576
00:39:16,047 --> 00:39:20,086
that are accepted in the liberal media
are sacrosanct.
577
00:39:20,127 --> 00:39:21,765
Can't go beyond them.
578
00:39:21,807 --> 00:39:25,436
And a well-functioning system
would in fact have a bias of that kind.
579
00:39:25,487 --> 00:39:30,800
The media would then serve to say, in effect:
Thus far and no further.
580
00:39:30,847 --> 00:39:33,805
We ask what would you expect of those media
581
00:39:33,847 --> 00:39:40,286
on just relatively uncontroversial,
guided-free market assumptions?
582
00:39:40,327 --> 00:39:43,478
And when you look at them,
you find a number of major factors
583
00:39:43,527 --> 00:39:46,087
entering into
determining what their products are.
584
00:39:46,127 --> 00:39:50,359
These are what we call the filters -
so one of them, for example, is ownership.
585
00:39:50,407 --> 00:39:52,682
Who owns them?
586
00:39:52,727 --> 00:39:56,083
CHOMSKY: The major agenda-setting media,
ater all, what are they?
587
00:39:56,127 --> 00:39:58,516
As institutions in the society, what are they?
588
00:39:58,567 --> 00:40:01,081
Well, in the first place
they are major corporations.
589
00:40:01,127 --> 00:40:03,197
In fact, huge corporations.
590
00:40:03,247 --> 00:40:07,798
Furthermore, they're integrated with, and
sometimes owned by, even larger corporations,
591
00:40:07,847 --> 00:40:11,920
conglomerates, so, for example,
by Westinghouse, GE and so on.
592
00:40:17,207 --> 00:40:22,884
STUDENT: What I wanted to know was
how specifically the elites control the media.
593
00:40:22,927 --> 00:40:25,999
That's like asking,
"How do the elites control General Motors"?
594
00:40:27,367 --> 00:40:29,358
Why isn't that a question?
595
00:40:29,407 --> 00:40:33,719
I mean, General Motors is an institution of the
elites. They don't have to control it. They own it.
596
00:40:33,767 --> 00:40:36,156
Except I guess, at a certain level I think...
597
00:40:38,727 --> 00:40:42,402
Like, I guess... I work with student press,
so I know, like, reporters and stuff...
598
00:40:42,447 --> 00:40:45,598
Elites don't control the student press,
but I'll tell you something -
599
00:40:45,647 --> 00:40:50,118
you try in the student press
to do anything that breaks out of conventions,
600
00:40:50,167 --> 00:40:53,921
and you're going to have the whole business
community around here down on your neck,
601
00:40:53,967 --> 00:40:56,925
and the university's going to get threatened,
and you know...
602
00:40:56,967 --> 00:40:59,686
Maybe nobody'll pay any attention to you.
That's possible.
603
00:40:59,727 --> 00:41:02,844
If you get to the point
where they don't stop paying attention to you,
604
00:41:02,887 --> 00:41:04,559
the pressures'll start coming.
605
00:41:04,607 --> 00:41:08,156
Because there are people with power,
there are people who own the country,
606
00:41:08,207 --> 00:41:10,767
and they're not going to
let the country get out of control.
607
00:41:10,807 --> 00:41:12,923
What do you think about that?
608
00:41:12,967 --> 00:41:20,647
This is the old cabal theory that somewhere
there's a room with a baize-covered desk,
609
00:41:20,687 --> 00:41:23,838
and there are a bunch of capitalists
sitting around pulling strings.
610
00:41:23,887 --> 00:41:27,197
These rooms don't exist.
I hate to tell Noam Chomsky this.
611
00:41:27,247 --> 00:41:30,842
- You don't share that view?
- It's the most absolute rubbish I've ever heard.
612
00:41:30,887 --> 00:41:32,639
It's the fashion in the universities.
613
00:41:32,687 --> 00:41:36,839
It's patent nonsense,
and I think it's nothing but a fashion.
614
00:41:36,887 --> 00:41:39,003
It's a way that...
615
00:41:39,727 --> 00:41:42,605
intellectuals have of... of feeling like a clergy.
616
00:41:42,647 --> 00:41:44,797
There has to be something wrong.
617
00:42:34,727 --> 00:42:36,718
CHOMSKY:
So, what we have in the first place
618
00:42:36,767 --> 00:42:40,396
is major corporations
which are parts of even bigger conglomerates.
619
00:42:40,447 --> 00:42:45,999
Now, like any other corporation, they...
they have a product which they sell to a market.
620
00:42:47,127 --> 00:42:50,676
The market is advertisers,
that is, other businesses.
621
00:42:50,727 --> 00:42:54,117
What keeps the media functioning
is not the audience.
622
00:42:54,167 --> 00:42:58,399
They make money from their advertisers, and
remember, we're talking about the elite media,
623
00:42:58,447 --> 00:43:04,283
so they're trying to sell a good product,
a product which raises advertising rates.
624
00:43:04,327 --> 00:43:06,636
And ask your friends in the advertising industry.
625
00:43:06,687 --> 00:43:09,520
That means
that they want to adjust their audience
626
00:43:09,567 --> 00:43:11,603
to the more elite and affluent audience.
627
00:43:11,647 --> 00:43:13,319
That raises advertising rates.
628
00:43:13,367 --> 00:43:17,326
So what you have is institutions, corporations -
big corporations -
629
00:43:17,367 --> 00:43:21,645
that are selling relatively privileged audiences
to other businesses.
630
00:43:21,687 --> 00:43:25,077
CHOMSKY: Well, what point of view
would you expect to come out of this?
631
00:43:25,687 --> 00:43:28,599
Without any further assumptions,
what you'd predict is
632
00:43:28,647 --> 00:43:31,957
that what comes out is a picture of the world,
a perception of the world,
633
00:43:32,007 --> 00:43:35,477
that satisfies the needs,
and the interests, and the perceptions
634
00:43:35,527 --> 00:43:38,997
of the sellers, the buyers, and the product.
635
00:43:41,567 --> 00:43:44,639
Now, there are many other factors
that press in the same direction.
636
00:43:44,687 --> 00:43:48,441
If people try to enter the system
who don't have that point of view,
637
00:43:48,487 --> 00:43:51,160
they're likely to be excluded
somewhere along the way.
638
00:43:51,207 --> 00:43:55,644
Ater all, no institution is going to
happily design a mechanism to self-destruct.
639
00:43:55,687 --> 00:44:00,158
That's not the way institutions function,
so they all work to exclude, or marginalise,
640
00:44:00,207 --> 00:44:03,756
or eliminate dissenting voices,
or alternative perspectives and so on
641
00:44:03,807 --> 00:44:05,365
because they're dysfunctional.
642
00:44:05,407 --> 00:44:07,762
They're dysfunctional to the institution itself.
643
00:44:07,807 --> 00:44:11,959
Do you think you've escaped
the ideological indoctrination
644
00:44:12,007 --> 00:44:14,362
of the media and society that you grew up in?
645
00:44:14,407 --> 00:44:16,637
Have I? Oten not.
646
00:44:16,687 --> 00:44:18,200
I mean, when I look back,
647
00:44:18,247 --> 00:44:22,957
and think of the things that I haven't done
that I should have done, it's...
648
00:44:23,007 --> 00:44:24,998
it's very...
649
00:44:25,807 --> 00:44:27,160
it's...
650
00:44:27,207 --> 00:44:28,845
not a pleasant experience.
651
00:44:28,887 --> 00:44:31,845
BARSAMIAN: So, what's the story
of young Noam in the school yard?
652
00:44:31,887 --> 00:44:33,036
Yeah, another...
653
00:44:33,087 --> 00:44:34,884
I mean, that was a personal thing for me.
654
00:44:34,927 --> 00:44:37,964
I don't know why it should interest anyone else,
but I do remember...
655
00:44:38,007 --> 00:44:41,283
- You drew certain conclusions.
- It had a big influence on me.
656
00:44:41,327 --> 00:44:44,000
I remember when I was about six, I guess,
657
00:44:44,047 --> 00:44:48,643
first grade, there was the standard fat kid
who everybody made fun of,
658
00:44:48,687 --> 00:44:53,124
and I remember in the school yard,
he was on a...
659
00:44:54,127 --> 00:44:57,836
you know, standing right outside
the school classroom,
660
00:44:57,887 --> 00:45:01,402
and a bunch of kids outside sort of taunting him,
and... you know, and so on,
661
00:45:01,447 --> 00:45:04,120
and one of the kids actually brought over
his older brother
662
00:45:04,167 --> 00:45:06,158
from third grade instead of first grade.
663
00:45:06,207 --> 00:45:07,526
Big kid.
664
00:45:07,567 --> 00:45:09,637
And he was going to beat him up or something,
665
00:45:09,687 --> 00:45:12,247
and I remember going up to stand next to him,
666
00:45:12,287 --> 00:45:15,279
feeling somebody ought to... help him,
667
00:45:15,327 --> 00:45:17,841
and I did for a while, and then I got scared,
668
00:45:17,887 --> 00:45:21,766
and I went away,
and I was very much ashamed of it aterwards,
669
00:45:21,807 --> 00:45:25,163
and sort of felt, you know...
"I'm not going to do that again."
670
00:45:27,167 --> 00:45:31,877
That's a feeling that's stuck with me -
you should stick with the underdog.
671
00:45:32,887 --> 00:45:35,799
And the shame remained.
I should have stayed there.
672
00:45:38,007 --> 00:45:42,080
You were already established, you were a
professor at MIT, you'd made a reputation,
673
00:45:42,127 --> 00:45:43,845
you had a terrific career ahead of you.
674
00:45:43,887 --> 00:45:47,436
You decided to become a political activist.
675
00:45:47,487 --> 00:45:51,844
Now, here is a classic case of somebody the
institution does not seem to have filtered out.
676
00:45:51,887 --> 00:45:54,117
I mean, you were a good boy up until then,
were you?
677
00:45:54,167 --> 00:45:56,283
Or you'd always been a slight rebel?
678
00:45:56,327 --> 00:45:59,000
CHOMSKY:
Pretty much. I had been pretty much outside.
679
00:45:59,047 --> 00:46:02,926
STEINBERG: You felt isolated and out of
sympathy with the currents of American life,
680
00:46:02,967 --> 00:46:04,195
but a lot of people do that.
681
00:46:04,247 --> 00:46:07,284
Suddenly, in 1964,
you decide, "I have to do something about this".
682
00:46:07,327 --> 00:46:08,601
What made you do that?
683
00:46:08,647 --> 00:46:12,003
CHOMSKY: That was a very conscious,
and a very uncomfortable, decision,
684
00:46:12,047 --> 00:46:14,481
because I knew
what the consequences would be.
685
00:46:14,527 --> 00:46:16,518
I was in a very favourable position.
686
00:46:16,567 --> 00:46:18,558
I had the kind of work I liked,
687
00:46:18,607 --> 00:46:20,723
we had a lively, exciting department,
688
00:46:20,767 --> 00:46:23,156
the field was going well, personal life was fine,
689
00:46:23,207 --> 00:46:25,482
I was living in a nice place, children growing up.
690
00:46:25,527 --> 00:46:28,087
Everything looked perfect,
and I knew I was giving it up,
691
00:46:28,127 --> 00:46:30,687
and at that time, remember,
it was not just giving talks.
692
00:46:30,727 --> 00:46:32,957
I became involved right away in resistance,
693
00:46:33,007 --> 00:46:36,522
and I expected to spend years in jail,
and came very close to it.
694
00:46:36,567 --> 00:46:39,400
In fact,
my wife went back to graduate school in part
695
00:46:39,447 --> 00:46:41,961
as we assumed
she would have to support the children.
696
00:46:42,007 --> 00:46:43,520
These were the expectations.
697
00:46:49,647 --> 00:46:52,684
And I recognised
that if I returned to these interests
698
00:46:52,727 --> 00:46:55,036
which were the dominant interests
of my own youth,
699
00:46:55,087 --> 00:46:57,282
life would become very uncomfortable.
700
00:46:57,327 --> 00:47:01,081
Because I know that in the United States
you don't get sent to psychiatric prison,
701
00:47:01,127 --> 00:47:03,482
and they don't send a death squad ater you
and so on,
702
00:47:03,527 --> 00:47:07,361
but there are definite penalties
for breaking the rules.
703
00:47:08,367 --> 00:47:10,005
So these were real decisions,
704
00:47:10,047 --> 00:47:15,838
and it simply seemed at that point
that it was just hopelessly immoral not to.
705
00:47:18,367 --> 00:47:21,040
I'm Noam Chomsky, I'm on the faculty at MIT,
706
00:47:21,087 --> 00:47:24,397
and I've been getting
more and more heavily involved
707
00:47:24,447 --> 00:47:26,802
in anti-war activities for the last few years.
708
00:47:38,967 --> 00:47:42,801
Beginning with writing articles,
and making speeches,
709
00:47:42,847 --> 00:47:45,042
speaking to congressmen
and that sort of thing,
710
00:47:45,087 --> 00:47:51,720
and gradually getting involved more and more
directly in resistance activities of various sorts.
711
00:47:51,767 --> 00:47:55,555
I've come to the feeling myself
that the most effective form of political action
712
00:47:55,607 --> 00:48:01,045
that is open to a responsible
and concerned citizen at the moment
713
00:48:01,087 --> 00:48:05,160
is action that really involves direct resistance,
714
00:48:05,207 --> 00:48:09,519
refusal to take part in
what I think are war crimes,
715
00:48:09,567 --> 00:48:13,685
to raise the domestic cost
of American aggression overseas
716
00:48:13,727 --> 00:48:19,359
through non-participation, and support
for those who are refusing to take part,
717
00:48:19,407 --> 00:48:22,126
in particular,
drat resistance throughout the country.
718
00:48:31,247 --> 00:48:36,116
I think that we can see quite clearly
some very, very serious defects and flaws
719
00:48:36,167 --> 00:48:39,000
in our society,
our level of culture, our institutions
720
00:48:39,047 --> 00:48:40,799
which are going to have to be corrected
721
00:48:40,847 --> 00:48:44,044
by operating outside of the framework
that is commonly accepted.
722
00:48:44,087 --> 00:48:47,796
I think we're going to have to
find new ways of political action.
723
00:48:56,167 --> 00:48:58,158
(Commotion)
724
00:48:58,207 --> 00:48:59,959
(Whistle blows)
725
00:49:13,007 --> 00:49:17,080
I rejoice in your disposition
to argue the Vietnam question,
726
00:49:17,127 --> 00:49:21,405
especially when I recognise
what an act of self-control this must involve.
727
00:49:21,447 --> 00:49:23,677
CHOMSKY: It really does.
- You're doing very well.
728
00:49:23,727 --> 00:49:26,958
- You're doing very well.
- I lose my temper. Maybe not tonight.
729
00:49:27,007 --> 00:49:28,998
Maybe not tonight...
730
00:49:29,047 --> 00:49:31,641
because if you would
I'd smash you in the goddamn face.
731
00:49:33,927 --> 00:49:36,236
That's a good reason for not losing your temper.
732
00:49:36,287 --> 00:49:42,726
You say, "The war is simply an obscenity,
a depraved act by weak and miserable men."
733
00:49:42,767 --> 00:49:44,997
Including all of us.
734
00:49:45,047 --> 00:49:47,607
Including myself. That's the next sentence.
735
00:49:47,647 --> 00:49:49,683
Oh, sure, sure, sure.
736
00:49:49,727 --> 00:49:52,719
Because you count everybody
in the company of the guilty.
737
00:49:52,767 --> 00:49:56,157
- I think that's true in this case.
- It's a theological observation.
738
00:49:56,207 --> 00:49:57,401
No, I don't think so.
739
00:49:57,447 --> 00:50:01,281
If everybody's guilty of everything,
then nobody's guilty of anything.
740
00:50:01,327 --> 00:50:02,646
No, I don't believe that.
741
00:50:02,687 --> 00:50:06,043
I think the point that I'm trying to make,
and I think ought to be made,
742
00:50:06,087 --> 00:50:08,442
is that the real...
743
00:50:08,487 --> 00:50:11,604
at least to me -
I say this elsewhere in the book -
744
00:50:11,647 --> 00:50:17,916
what seems to me a very, in a sense, terrifying
aspect of our society and other societies
745
00:50:17,967 --> 00:50:23,724
is the equanimity and the detachment
with which sane, reasonable, sensible people
746
00:50:23,767 --> 00:50:25,439
can observe such events.
747
00:50:25,487 --> 00:50:30,242
I think that's more terrifying than
the occasional Hitler or LeMay that crops up.
748
00:50:30,287 --> 00:50:33,597
These people would not be able
to operate were it not for the...
749
00:50:33,647 --> 00:50:35,126
this apathy and equanimity,
750
00:50:35,167 --> 00:50:37,283
and therefore I think that it's in some sense
751
00:50:37,327 --> 00:50:44,403
the sane, and reasonable, and tolerant people
who share a very serious burden of guilt
752
00:50:44,447 --> 00:50:47,678
that they very easily
throw on the shoulders of others
753
00:50:47,727 --> 00:50:50,366
who seem more extreme and more violent.
754
00:50:53,247 --> 00:50:58,924
12 million pounds of confetti dropped into
New York City's so-called Canyon of Heroes.
755
00:50:58,967 --> 00:51:03,324
Americans were officially welcoming
the troops home from the Persian Gulf war.
756
00:51:03,367 --> 00:51:05,483
MAN: It worked out really great for us.
757
00:51:05,527 --> 00:51:12,842
It just goes to show that we're a mighty nation,
and we'll be there no matter what comes along.
758
00:51:12,887 --> 00:51:17,165
It's the strongest country in the world,
and you got to be glad to live here.
759
00:51:17,207 --> 00:51:21,200
ASAIS: So, tell me what you feel
about media coverage of the war.
760
00:51:21,247 --> 00:51:26,082
It was good. It got to be a bit much ater a while,
but I guess it was good to know everything.
761
00:51:26,127 --> 00:51:28,595
In Vietnam you didn't know a lot
that was going on,
762
00:51:28,647 --> 00:51:32,003
but here you're pretty much
up to the moment on everything,
763
00:51:32,047 --> 00:51:34,561
so... I guess it was good to be informed.
764
00:51:36,247 --> 00:51:40,126
For the first time,
because of technology, we have the ability
765
00:51:40,167 --> 00:51:43,716
to be live from many locations
around the globe,
766
00:51:43,767 --> 00:51:47,726
and because of the format -
an all-news network -
767
00:51:47,767 --> 00:51:52,238
we can spend whatever time is necessary
to bring the viewer
768
00:51:52,287 --> 00:51:56,519
the complete context
of that day's portion of the story.
769
00:51:59,727 --> 00:52:06,678
And by context, I mean the institutional memory
that is critical to understand why and how,
770
00:52:06,727 --> 00:52:11,562
and that's those who are analysts,
and do commentary,
771
00:52:11,607 --> 00:52:13,962
and those who can explain.
772
00:52:15,127 --> 00:52:17,118
MAN: Slug that last piece...
773
00:52:19,167 --> 00:52:23,319
...lTN-lsrael Post War.
774
00:52:23,367 --> 00:52:26,962
TURNER: David Brinkley once said
that you step in front of the camera,
775
00:52:27,007 --> 00:52:29,567
and you get out of news business,
and into show business,
776
00:52:29,607 --> 00:52:34,635
but nonetheless
that should not in any way subtract or obscure
777
00:52:34,687 --> 00:52:37,565
the need for the basic standards
of good journalism.
778
00:52:37,607 --> 00:52:40,997
PRODUCER: Hang tight. Let me
give you a lead for Salinger right now, OK?
779
00:52:41,847 --> 00:52:46,159
President Bush
and Prime Minister Major have...
780
00:52:47,167 --> 00:52:50,921
...closed, or have almost rejected...
781
00:52:50,967 --> 00:52:55,199
the Soviet peace talk...
peace efforts in Saudi Arabia.
782
00:52:55,247 --> 00:52:57,761
The door is being let open.
783
00:52:57,807 --> 00:53:01,356
Rick Salinger is standing by live in Riyad.
784
00:53:01,407 --> 00:53:03,716
- All but closed.
- Yeah. All but closed.
785
00:53:03,767 --> 00:53:05,086
Right.
786
00:53:05,127 --> 00:53:10,440
TURNER: Accuracy, speed, a fair approach,
honesty and integrity within the reporter
787
00:53:10,487 --> 00:53:13,479
to try and bring the truth,
whatever the truth may be.
788
00:53:14,287 --> 00:53:16,164
Going to war is a serious business.
789
00:53:16,207 --> 00:53:21,235
In a totalitarian society, the dictator just says,
"We're going to war", and everybody marches.
790
00:53:21,287 --> 00:53:24,324
NARRATOR: And with this weapon
of human brotherhood in our hands
791
00:53:24,367 --> 00:53:29,566
we are seeing the war for men's minds
not as a battle of truth against lies,
792
00:53:29,607 --> 00:53:33,725
but as a lasting alliance pledged in faith
with all those millions driving forward
793
00:53:33,767 --> 00:53:38,363
to create the true new order-
the world order of the people first,
794
00:53:38,407 --> 00:53:40,443
the people before all.
795
00:53:40,487 --> 00:53:45,720
CHOMSKY: In a democratic society, the theory
is, if the political leadership is committed to war
796
00:53:45,767 --> 00:53:49,646
they present reasons, and they've got
a very heavy burden of proof to meet.
797
00:53:49,687 --> 00:53:53,202
Because a war is a very catastrophic affair,
as it's been proved to be.
798
00:53:53,247 --> 00:53:55,841
Now, the role of the media at that point is to...
799
00:53:55,887 --> 00:53:59,163
is to present the relevant background.
800
00:53:59,207 --> 00:54:02,199
For example,
the possibilities of peaceful settlement,
801
00:54:02,247 --> 00:54:04,556
such as what they may be,
have to be presented,
802
00:54:04,607 --> 00:54:11,922
and then to offer a forum... in fact encourage
a forum of debate over this very dread decision
803
00:54:11,967 --> 00:54:15,243
to go to war, and in this case
kill hundreds of thousands of people,
804
00:54:15,287 --> 00:54:17,278
and leave two countries wrecked, and so on.
805
00:54:17,327 --> 00:54:19,158
That never happened.
806
00:54:19,207 --> 00:54:20,686
There was never...
807
00:54:20,727 --> 00:54:22,206
Well, you know, when I say never,
808
00:54:22,247 --> 00:54:28,117
I mean 99.9 per cent of the discussion
excluded the option of a peaceful settlement.
809
00:54:28,167 --> 00:54:30,681
NARRATOR:
To Washington's Office of War Information
810
00:54:30,727 --> 00:54:34,606
falls one of the most vital and constructive tasks
of this war.
811
00:54:34,647 --> 00:54:36,638
This is a people's war,
812
00:54:36,687 --> 00:54:41,078
and to win it, the people ought to
know as much about it as they can.
813
00:54:41,127 --> 00:54:45,405
This office will do its best to tell the truth,
and nothing but the truth,
814
00:54:45,447 --> 00:54:47,119
both at home and abroad.
815
00:54:47,167 --> 00:54:50,239
NARRATOR: The first weapon
in this worldwide strategy of proof
816
00:54:50,287 --> 00:54:53,279
is the great machine of information
represented by the free press
817
00:54:53,327 --> 00:54:57,320
with its powers of moulding public thought,
and leading public action,
818
00:54:57,367 --> 00:55:00,484
with all its lifelines
for the exchange of new ideas
819
00:55:00,527 --> 00:55:03,439
between fighting nations
spread across the earth.
820
00:55:05,687 --> 00:55:09,202
CHOMSKY: Every time Bush would appear
and say, "There will be no negotiations",
821
00:55:09,247 --> 00:55:12,239
there would be a hundred editorials
the next day
822
00:55:12,287 --> 00:55:15,404
lauding him
for going the last mile for diplomacy.
823
00:55:15,447 --> 00:55:19,645
If he said, "You can't reward an aggressor",
instead of cracking up in ridicule
824
00:55:19,687 --> 00:55:23,600
the way people did in civilised sectors
of the world like the whole Third World,
825
00:55:23,647 --> 00:55:27,322
the media still...
"man of fantastic principle", you know.
826
00:55:27,367 --> 00:55:30,165
The invader of Panama, the only head of state
827
00:55:30,207 --> 00:55:33,324
who stands condemned
for aggression in the world,
828
00:55:33,367 --> 00:55:36,165
the guy who was head of the CIA
during the Timor aggression,
829
00:55:36,207 --> 00:55:39,324
he says, "Aggressors can't be rewarded",
the media just applaud it.
830
00:55:39,367 --> 00:55:44,361
VOICEOVER: The motion picture industry with
its worldwide organisation of newsreel crews,
831
00:55:44,407 --> 00:55:47,444
invaluable for bringing into vivid focus
832
00:55:47,487 --> 00:55:50,365
the background drama
and perspectives of the war.
833
00:55:50,967 --> 00:55:55,245
Mobilised too in this all-out struggle
for men's minds are the radio networks,
834
00:55:55,287 --> 00:55:59,565
with all their experience in the swift reporting
of great occasions and events.
835
00:56:01,367 --> 00:56:04,564
From every strategic centre
and frontline stronghold
836
00:56:04,607 --> 00:56:07,440
their reporters are sending back
the lessons of new tactics,
837
00:56:07,487 --> 00:56:09,478
new ways of war.
838
00:56:09,527 --> 00:56:13,839
CHOMSKY: The result was it's a media war.
There's tremendous fakery all along the line.
839
00:56:13,887 --> 00:56:16,401
The UN is finally living up to its mission.
840
00:56:16,927 --> 00:56:19,361
"A wondrous sea change",
The New York Times told us.
841
00:56:19,407 --> 00:56:21,602
The only wondrous sea change
was that for once
842
00:56:21,647 --> 00:56:25,560
the United States didn't veto a Security Council
Resolution against aggression.
843
00:56:27,247 --> 00:56:29,886
People don't want a war
unless you have to have one,
844
00:56:29,927 --> 00:56:31,997
and would've known
you don't have to have one.
845
00:56:32,047 --> 00:56:34,083
The media kept people from knowing that,
846
00:56:34,127 --> 00:56:37,483
and that means we went to war
very much in the manner of a totalitarian state,
847
00:56:37,527 --> 00:56:39,324
thanks to the media subservience.
848
00:56:39,367 --> 00:56:41,039
That's the big story.
849
00:56:41,887 --> 00:56:43,878
(Cheering)
850
00:56:47,447 --> 00:56:50,837
Now, remember I'm not talking about
a small radio station in Laramie.
851
00:56:50,887 --> 00:56:54,800
I'm talking about
the national agenda-setting media.
852
00:56:54,847 --> 00:56:57,315
If you run a radio news show in Laramie,
853
00:56:57,367 --> 00:57:01,565
chances are very strong that you pick up
what was in The Times that morning,
854
00:57:01,607 --> 00:57:03,086
and you decide that's the news.
855
00:57:03,127 --> 00:57:06,005
In fact, if you follow the AP wires,
you find it in the aternoon.
856
00:57:06,047 --> 00:57:09,596
They send across tomorrow's front page
of The New York Times.
857
00:57:09,647 --> 00:57:11,842
That's so that everybody knows
what the news is.
858
00:57:11,887 --> 00:57:16,244
The perceptions and perspectives
and so on are sort of transmitted down,
859
00:57:16,287 --> 00:57:20,883
not to the precise detail, but the general picture
is pretty much transmitted elsewhere.
860
00:57:22,927 --> 00:57:25,919
The foreign news comes here
to the Foreign News desk.
861
00:57:25,967 --> 00:57:27,958
The editor is Bob Hanley.
862
00:57:28,847 --> 00:57:32,726
Bob, I suppose you get far more foreign news
than you can possibly use in the paper.
863
00:57:32,767 --> 00:57:36,726
Yes, we do. We get a great deal more
than we can accommodate in a day.
864
00:57:36,767 --> 00:57:38,598
Your job is to weed it out, I suppose.
865
00:57:38,647 --> 00:57:41,559
This is the selection centre, as it were,
866
00:57:41,607 --> 00:57:44,167
and when I have selected it
867
00:57:44,207 --> 00:57:49,156
I pass it across the desk
to one or the other of the sub-editors.
868
00:57:49,207 --> 00:57:54,076
It comes back to me,
and on this chart I design the page.
869
00:57:54,127 --> 00:57:56,118
That is page one and page two.
870
00:57:56,167 --> 00:57:57,885
Fine, Bob. Thank you very much.
871
00:57:57,927 --> 00:57:59,918
(Bell rings)
872
00:58:02,927 --> 00:58:05,646
- Why do you want to make a film about Media?
WINTONICK: Well...
873
00:58:05,687 --> 00:58:07,325
Such a nice, quiet town.
874
00:58:07,367 --> 00:58:09,164
WINTONICK: It's a beautiful town.
875
00:58:09,207 --> 00:58:12,802
We're making a film about the mass media,
so we thought what a good place to come.
876
00:58:12,847 --> 00:58:14,405
Want to know where they got the name?
877
00:58:14,447 --> 00:58:16,836
WINTONICK: Maybe you could start
by introducing yourself.
878
00:58:16,887 --> 00:58:18,684
Yes, I'm Bodhon Senkow.
879
00:58:18,727 --> 00:58:22,515
I'm the main street manager and executive
director of the Media Business Authority,
880
00:58:22,567 --> 00:58:25,525
and we are in Media, Delaware County,
881
00:58:25,567 --> 00:58:27,876
in the southeastern part of Pennsylvania.
882
00:58:27,927 --> 00:58:31,044
Media is called "Everybody's hometown".
883
00:58:31,087 --> 00:58:35,160
The motto was developed
as a way to promote the community.
884
00:58:35,207 --> 00:58:37,641
We're a very high
promotion-conscious community.
885
00:58:39,127 --> 00:58:42,563
When you walk through Media,
you'll be treated very well,
886
00:58:42,607 --> 00:58:46,998
and you find that people have taken the idea
of being everybody's hometown to heart.
887
00:58:47,047 --> 00:58:49,607
WINTONICK:
The local paper, The Talk of the Town...
888
00:58:49,647 --> 00:58:51,160
The Town Talk.
889
00:58:51,767 --> 00:58:53,803
- Do you read that?
- Yes, I read The Town Talk.
890
00:58:53,847 --> 00:58:57,476
What do you think the difference is between
The Wall Street Journal and The Talk?
891
00:58:57,527 --> 00:59:00,087
Well, I mean, The Town Talk
is completely local news,
892
00:59:00,127 --> 00:59:02,800
and it's fun, it's nice to read, it's interesting.
893
00:59:02,847 --> 00:59:06,840
You read about your neighbours, see what's
going on in the district, and things like that.
894
00:59:06,887 --> 00:59:10,516
BERMAN: We're in business to make bucks,
just like the big daily newspapers,
895
00:59:10,567 --> 00:59:12,956
and like the big radio stations,
and we do quite well,
896
00:59:13,007 --> 00:59:15,362
and rightfully so, cos we work very hard at it.
897
00:59:15,407 --> 00:59:18,797
I just wanna show you a copy of the paper here,
the way it is this week.
898
00:59:18,847 --> 00:59:21,486
It's plastic-wrapped on all four sides.
899
00:59:21,527 --> 00:59:25,361
Weatherproof,
and hung on everybody's front door.
900
00:59:25,407 --> 00:59:30,322
And many times you'll find this paper runs
well over 100 pages a week.
901
00:59:30,367 --> 00:59:32,483
You have to remember there are five editions.
902
00:59:32,527 --> 00:59:35,087
This happens to be
the Central Delaware County edition,
903
00:59:35,127 --> 00:59:37,800
which is the edition
that covers Media, Pennsylvania.
904
00:59:37,847 --> 00:59:40,839
What you see here
is the advertising and composition department.
905
00:59:40,887 --> 00:59:42,878
- Say hello, guys, will you?
ALL: Hi.
906
00:59:43,887 --> 00:59:48,005
And what we're doing now is we're putting
red dots, green dots, and yellow dots
907
00:59:48,047 --> 00:59:51,562
up on the map wherever there is a store.
908
00:59:51,607 --> 00:59:54,485
The red dots are the stores
that don't advertise with us at all.
909
00:59:54,527 --> 00:59:57,325
The green dots are the ones
that advertise with us every week,
910
00:59:57,367 --> 01:00:00,882
and the yellow dots
are the ones that run sporadically.
911
01:00:00,927 --> 01:00:03,919
Now, we have computer print-outs
of every one of these stores,
912
01:00:03,967 --> 01:00:07,926
and what we do is we take the print-outs
of all the red dots which are the bad guys,
913
01:00:07,967 --> 01:00:12,279
and our idea is to turn these red dots into yellow
dots, and turn the yellow dots into green dots,
914
01:00:12,327 --> 01:00:15,444
and eventually make them all green dots,
so 100 per cent of the stores
915
01:00:15,487 --> 01:00:19,366
and 100 per cent of the merchants and service
people advertise in our paper every week.
916
01:00:19,407 --> 01:00:21,238
That way, we won't have any more red dots.
917
01:00:21,287 --> 01:00:23,676
I guess there'll always be a few,
but I have high hopes
918
01:00:23,727 --> 01:00:26,560
there'll be a lot more green ones
than red when we're finished.
919
01:00:26,607 --> 01:00:27,960
Hi, I'm Jim Morgan.
920
01:00:28,007 --> 01:00:31,044
I'm with the Corporate Relations Department
of The New York Times,
921
01:00:31,087 --> 01:00:34,636
and I'm here to take you on a tour
of The New York Times, so... let's begin.
922
01:00:37,927 --> 01:00:40,760
MORGAN:
So, they're just taking audio in here, yeah.
923
01:00:40,807 --> 01:00:42,798
They're taking audio in here.
924
01:00:42,847 --> 01:00:46,556
Audio. No cameras, no still.
We went over this quite thoroughly.
925
01:00:46,607 --> 01:00:48,996
They don't even take a still camera in here.
926
01:00:50,807 --> 01:00:53,799
We're in the composing room.
This is where the pages are composed.
927
01:00:53,847 --> 01:00:55,519
This is the typographical area.
928
01:01:02,687 --> 01:01:07,966
This might seem big, but it is average.
In fact, below average.
929
01:01:08,007 --> 01:01:13,206
Our 60 per cent might include on some days
maybe...
930
01:01:13,247 --> 01:01:17,240
20 pages of classified advertising all to itself,
931
01:01:17,287 --> 01:01:21,075
where the rest of the newspaper
is weighted much heavier news to advertising,
932
01:01:21,127 --> 01:01:24,756
but the paper in its entirety every day,
large or small,
933
01:01:24,807 --> 01:01:27,196
is 60 ads, 40 news.
934
01:01:29,007 --> 01:01:31,646
Well, that completes our tour
of The New York Times,
935
01:01:31,687 --> 01:01:34,804
and I hope you found it informative, and...
936
01:01:35,807 --> 01:01:40,483
...I hope that you read The New York Times
every day of your life from now on.
937
01:01:44,167 --> 01:01:48,399
CHOMSKY: There are other media too
whose basic social role is quite different.
938
01:01:48,447 --> 01:01:50,199
It's diversion.
939
01:01:50,247 --> 01:01:56,117
There's the real mass media, the kinds
that are aimed at the guys who... Joe Six-pack.
940
01:01:56,167 --> 01:02:00,604
That kind. The purpose of those media
is just to dull people's brains.
941
01:02:00,647 --> 01:02:04,720
This is an over-simplification,
but for the 80 per cent or whatever they are,
942
01:02:04,767 --> 01:02:07,156
the main thing for them is to divert them,
943
01:02:07,207 --> 01:02:12,565
to get them to watch National Football League,
and to worry about the... you know...
944
01:02:12,607 --> 01:02:17,522
mother with child with six heads,
or whatever you pick up in the... you know...
945
01:02:17,567 --> 01:02:21,321
in the thing that you pick
up on the supermarket stands, and so on.
946
01:02:21,367 --> 01:02:26,282
Or, you know, look at astrology, or get involved
in fundamentalist stuff, or something.
947
01:02:26,327 --> 01:02:31,321
Just get them away, you know.
Get them away from things that matter.
948
01:02:31,367 --> 01:02:35,645
And for that,
it's important to reduce their capacity to think.
949
01:02:35,687 --> 01:02:39,441
NARRATOR: The sports section is handled
in another special department.
950
01:02:39,487 --> 01:02:42,684
The sports reporter must be a specialist
in his knowledge of sports.
951
01:02:42,727 --> 01:02:47,960
He gets his story right at the sporting event,
and often sends it in to his paper play by play.
952
01:02:48,007 --> 01:02:49,645
CHOMSKY: Sports.
953
01:02:49,687 --> 01:02:53,999
That's another crucial example
of the indoctrination system in my view.
954
01:02:54,047 --> 01:02:58,518
For one thing, because it... you know,
it offers people something to pay attention to
955
01:02:58,567 --> 01:03:00,797
that's of no importance.
956
01:03:00,847 --> 01:03:03,839
- That keeps them from worrying about...
(Applause)
957
01:03:05,447 --> 01:03:08,484
...keeps them from worrying
about things that matter to their lives
958
01:03:08,527 --> 01:03:11,041
they might have some idea
about doing something about.
959
01:03:11,087 --> 01:03:18,437
And in fact, it's striking to see the intelligence
that's used by ordinary people in sports.
960
01:03:18,487 --> 01:03:21,638
You listen to radio stations where people call in.
961
01:03:21,687 --> 01:03:23,962
They have the most exotic information
962
01:03:24,007 --> 01:03:26,601
and understanding
about all kinds of arcane issues,
963
01:03:26,647 --> 01:03:28,638
and the press undoubtedly does a lot with this.
964
01:03:28,687 --> 01:03:30,757
I remember in high school - I was pretty old -
965
01:03:30,807 --> 01:03:33,162
I suddenly asked myself at one point,
966
01:03:33,207 --> 01:03:36,836
"Why do I care
if my high school team wins the football game?"
967
01:03:36,887 --> 01:03:40,323
I mean, I don't know anybody on the team,
you know.
968
01:03:40,367 --> 01:03:41,686
(Laughter)
969
01:03:41,727 --> 01:03:44,719
It had nothing to do with me.
I mean, why am I cheering for my team?
970
01:03:44,767 --> 01:03:46,405
It doesn't make any sense.
971
01:03:47,407 --> 01:03:49,398
But the point is, it does make sense.
972
01:03:49,447 --> 01:03:53,156
It's a way of building up irrational attitudes
of submission to authority,
973
01:03:54,167 --> 01:03:58,922
and, you know, group cohesion behind...
you know, leadership elements.
974
01:03:58,967 --> 01:04:01,640
In fact, it's training in irrational jingoism.
975
01:04:01,687 --> 01:04:05,157
That's also a feature of competitive sports.
I think...
976
01:04:05,207 --> 01:04:09,644
If you look closely at these things,
I think, typically, they do have functions,
977
01:04:09,687 --> 01:04:13,282
and that's why
energy is devoted to supporting them,
978
01:04:13,327 --> 01:04:16,683
and creating a basis for them,
and advertisers are willing to pay for them.
979
01:04:20,447 --> 01:04:22,278
WINTONICK: I'd like to ask you a question
980
01:04:22,327 --> 01:04:25,125
about the methodology
and study in the propaganda model,
981
01:04:25,167 --> 01:04:27,476
and how would one go about doing that?
982
01:04:27,527 --> 01:04:29,916
Well, there are a number of ways to proceed.
983
01:04:30,927 --> 01:04:35,921
One obvious way is to try to find
more or less paired examples.
984
01:04:36,927 --> 01:04:39,646
History doesn't offer true controlled
experiments,
985
01:04:39,687 --> 01:04:41,518
but it oten comes pretty close.
986
01:04:41,567 --> 01:04:46,800
So one can find atrocities or abuses of one sort
987
01:04:46,847 --> 01:04:51,159
that on the one hand are committed
by official enemies, and on the other hand
988
01:04:51,207 --> 01:04:55,962
are committed by friends and allies,
or by the favoured state itself.
989
01:04:56,007 --> 01:04:58,077
By the United States, in the US' case.
990
01:04:58,127 --> 01:05:01,244
The question is whether the media
accept the government framework,
991
01:05:01,287 --> 01:05:03,960
or whether they use the same agenda,
same set of questions,
992
01:05:04,007 --> 01:05:07,044
the same criteria for dealing with the two cases
993
01:05:07,087 --> 01:05:09,555
as any honest outside observer would do.
994
01:05:09,607 --> 01:05:11,677
ANNOUNCER:
If you think America's involvement
995
01:05:11,727 --> 01:05:14,639
in the war in Southeast Asia is over, think again.
996
01:05:14,687 --> 01:05:18,965
MAN: The Khmer Rouge are the
most genocidal people on the face of the earth.
997
01:05:19,007 --> 01:05:21,567
Peter Jennings
Reporting From The Killing Fields.
998
01:05:21,607 --> 01:05:23,359
Thursday.
999
01:05:23,407 --> 01:05:28,435
I mean, the great act of genocide
in the modern period is Pol Pot.
1000
01:05:28,487 --> 01:05:32,036
1975 to... through 1978.
1001
01:05:32,087 --> 01:05:35,363
That atrocity...
I think it would be hard to find any example
1002
01:05:35,407 --> 01:05:40,845
of a comparable outrage and outpouring of fury,
and so on and so forth,
1003
01:05:40,887 --> 01:05:42,479
so that's one atrocity.
1004
01:05:42,527 --> 01:05:46,486
It just happens that in that case,
history did set up a controlled experiment.
1005
01:05:46,527 --> 01:05:48,916
ASAIS:
Ever heard of a place called East Timor?
1006
01:05:48,967 --> 01:05:50,958
- I can't say that I have.
- Where?
1007
01:05:51,007 --> 01:05:52,998
- East Timor.
- No.
1008
01:05:53,047 --> 01:05:56,403
Well, it happens that right at that time
there was another atrocity.
1009
01:05:56,447 --> 01:05:59,439
Very similar in character,
but differing in one respect -
1010
01:05:59,487 --> 01:06:02,160
we were responsible for it, not Pol Pot.
1011
01:06:02,207 --> 01:06:04,767
Hello. I'm Louise Penney,
and this is Radio Noon.
1012
01:06:04,807 --> 01:06:08,641
If you've been listening to the programme
fairly regularly over the last few months,
1013
01:06:08,687 --> 01:06:12,362
you'll know East Timor has come
into the conversation more than once,
1014
01:06:12,407 --> 01:06:17,435
particularly when we were talking about foreign
aid, and also the war, and a new world order.
1015
01:06:17,487 --> 01:06:21,002
People wondered why,
if the UN was serious about a new world order,
1016
01:06:21,047 --> 01:06:23,402
no-one was doing anything to help East Timor.
1017
01:06:23,447 --> 01:06:26,598
The area was invaded by Indonesia in 1975.
1018
01:06:26,647 --> 01:06:30,242
There are reports of atrocities
against the Timorese people,
1019
01:06:30,287 --> 01:06:33,006
and yet Canada and other nations
have consistently
1020
01:06:33,047 --> 01:06:36,244
voted against UN Resolutions
to end the occupation.
1021
01:06:36,287 --> 01:06:38,881
Today, we're going to take a closer look
at East Timor,
1022
01:06:38,927 --> 01:06:43,000
what's happened to it, and why the international
community is doing nothing to help.
1023
01:06:43,927 --> 01:06:46,725
One of the people who have been most active
is Elaine Briére,
1024
01:06:46,767 --> 01:06:48,962
a photojournalist from British Columbia.
1025
01:06:49,007 --> 01:06:51,475
She's the founder of
the East Timor Alert Network,
1026
01:06:51,527 --> 01:06:53,518
and she joins me in the studio now.
1027
01:06:53,567 --> 01:06:55,159
- Hello.
- Hi.
1028
01:06:55,207 --> 01:06:57,198
One tragedy compounding a tragedy
1029
01:06:57,247 --> 01:07:00,364
is that a lot of people
don't know much about East Timor.
1030
01:07:01,247 --> 01:07:04,319
- Where is it?
- East Timor is just north of Australia.
1031
01:07:04,367 --> 01:07:08,645
About 420 km, and it's right between
the Indian and Pacific oceans.
1032
01:07:08,687 --> 01:07:14,717
Just south of East Timor is a deep-water sea
lane perfect for US submarines to pass through.
1033
01:07:14,767 --> 01:07:16,883
There's also huge oil reserves there.
1034
01:07:20,367 --> 01:07:22,722
One of the unique things
about East Timor is that
1035
01:07:22,767 --> 01:07:27,477
it's truly one of the last surviving
ancient civilisations in that part of the world.
1036
01:07:29,607 --> 01:07:33,361
The Timorese spoke
30 different languages and dialects
1037
01:07:33,407 --> 01:07:35,841
amongst a group of 700,000 people.
1038
01:07:37,727 --> 01:07:42,437
Today less than five per cent of the world's
people live like the East Timorese.
1039
01:07:42,487 --> 01:07:47,641
Basically self-reliant, they live really outside
of the global economic system.
1040
01:07:51,847 --> 01:07:57,604
Small societies like the East Timorese are much
more democratic and much more egalitarian,
1041
01:07:57,647 --> 01:08:00,559
and there's much more sharing
of power and wealth.
1042
01:08:03,127 --> 01:08:07,086
Before the Indonesians invaded,
most people lived in small rural villages.
1043
01:08:13,047 --> 01:08:15,561
The old people in the village
were like the university.
1044
01:08:15,607 --> 01:08:19,077
They passed on tribal wisdom
from generation to generation.
1045
01:08:20,087 --> 01:08:25,002
Children grew up
in a safe, stimulating, nurturing environment.
1046
01:08:38,407 --> 01:08:43,037
A year ater I let East Timor, I was appalled
when I heard Indonesia had invaded.
1047
01:08:43,087 --> 01:08:47,365
It didn't want a small, independent country
setting an example for the region.
1048
01:08:49,847 --> 01:08:52,441
CHOMSKY:
East Timor was a Portuguese colony.
1049
01:08:52,487 --> 01:08:56,719
Indonesia had no claim to it,
and in fact stated that they had no claim to it.
1050
01:08:57,727 --> 01:09:02,039
During the period of colonisation,
there was a good deal of politicisation
1051
01:09:02,087 --> 01:09:04,078
that different groups developed.
1052
01:09:05,687 --> 01:09:08,724
A civil war broke out in August '75.
1053
01:09:12,807 --> 01:09:14,798
(Machine-gun fire)
1054
01:09:23,167 --> 01:09:28,480
It ended up in a victory for Fretilin,
which was one of the groupings,
1055
01:09:28,527 --> 01:09:34,875
described as populist Catholic in character,
with some typical letist rhetoric.
1056
01:09:34,927 --> 01:09:36,076
(Car horn beeps)
1057
01:09:36,127 --> 01:09:39,005
Indonesia at once started intervening.
1058
01:09:39,047 --> 01:09:42,596
SHACKLETON: What's the situation?
When did those ships come in?
1059
01:09:42,647 --> 01:09:44,956
RAMOS-HORTA:
They start arriving since Monday.
1060
01:09:45,007 --> 01:09:48,283
Six, seven boats together,
very close to our border.
1061
01:09:48,327 --> 01:09:52,240
They're not there just for fun.
They're preparing a massive operation.
1062
01:09:53,247 --> 01:09:57,525
SHACKLETON: Something happened here
last night that moved us very deeply.
1063
01:09:57,567 --> 01:10:00,035
It was so far outside our experience
as Australians
1064
01:10:00,087 --> 01:10:03,762
that we'll find it very difficult
to convey to you, but we'll try.
1065
01:10:05,047 --> 01:10:09,723
Sitting on woven mats under a thatched roof
in a hut with no walls
1066
01:10:09,767 --> 01:10:14,602
we were the target of a barrage of questioning
from men who know they may die tomorrow,
1067
01:10:14,647 --> 01:10:18,526
and cannot understand
why the rest of the world does not care.
1068
01:10:18,567 --> 01:10:20,046
That's all they want -
1069
01:10:20,087 --> 01:10:23,238
for the United Nations to care about
what is happening here.
1070
01:10:24,167 --> 01:10:26,840
The emotion here last night was so strong
1071
01:10:26,887 --> 01:10:30,926
that we, all three of us, felt we should
be able to reach out into the warm night air
1072
01:10:30,967 --> 01:10:32,480
and touch it.
1073
01:10:32,527 --> 01:10:36,520
Greg Shackleton, at an unnamed village
which we will remember forever
1074
01:10:36,567 --> 01:10:38,558
in Portuguese Timor.
1075
01:10:39,607 --> 01:10:41,598
(Gun cocked and fired)
1076
01:10:42,487 --> 01:10:44,478
(Continued gunfire)
1077
01:10:52,607 --> 01:10:55,883
Ford and Kissinger visited Jakarta,
I think it was December 5th.
1078
01:10:55,927 --> 01:11:00,717
We know that they had requested that
Indonesia delay the invasion until ater they let
1079
01:11:00,767 --> 01:11:02,644
because it would be too embarrassing.
1080
01:11:03,687 --> 01:11:07,999
And within hours, I think, ater they let,
the invasion took place on December 7th.
1081
01:11:08,047 --> 01:11:15,044
What happened on December 7th in 1975,
is just one of the great evil deeds of history.
1082
01:11:15,087 --> 01:11:18,966
Early in the morning
bombs begin dropping on Dili.
1083
01:11:19,007 --> 01:11:21,362
The number of troops that invaded Dili that day
1084
01:11:21,407 --> 01:11:24,558
almost outnumbered
the entire population of the town.
1085
01:11:24,607 --> 01:11:28,839
And for two or three weeks,
they just killed people.
1086
01:11:28,887 --> 01:11:30,878
(Speaks Portuguese)
1087
01:11:51,487 --> 01:11:56,277
This Council must consider Indonesian
aggression against East Timor
1088
01:11:56,327 --> 01:11:58,682
as the main issue of the discussion.
1089
01:11:58,727 --> 01:12:03,323
CHOMSKY: When the Indonesians invaded,
the UN reacted as it always does,
1090
01:12:03,367 --> 01:12:06,882
calling for sanctions and condemnation
and so on.
1091
01:12:06,927 --> 01:12:09,805
Various watered-down resolutions
were passed,
1092
01:12:09,847 --> 01:12:13,886
but the US were very clearly
not going to allow anything to work.
1093
01:12:24,167 --> 01:12:28,080
So the Timorese were fleeing into the jungles
by the thousands.
1094
01:12:28,127 --> 01:12:32,996
By late 1977, '78
Indonesia set up receiving centres
1095
01:12:33,047 --> 01:12:36,722
for those Timorese
who came out of the jungle waving white flags.
1096
01:12:36,767 --> 01:12:38,837
Those the Indonesians thought more educated,
1097
01:12:38,887 --> 01:12:44,917
or suspected of belonging to Fretilin or other
opposition parties were immediately killed.
1098
01:12:44,967 --> 01:12:47,845
They took women aside,
and flew them off to Dili in helicopters
1099
01:12:47,887 --> 01:12:49,559
for use by the Indonesian soldiers.
1100
01:12:49,607 --> 01:12:52,075
They killed children and babies.
1101
01:12:53,447 --> 01:12:57,918
But in those days their main strategy
and their main weapon was starvation.
1102
01:13:01,167 --> 01:13:05,240
CHOMSKY: By 1978,
it was approaching really genocidal levels.
1103
01:13:05,287 --> 01:13:09,724
The church and other sources
estimated about 200,000 people killed.
1104
01:13:09,767 --> 01:13:13,601
The US backed it all the way.
The US provided 90 per cent of the arms.
1105
01:13:13,647 --> 01:13:17,845
Right ater the invasion,
arms shipments were stepped up.
1106
01:13:17,887 --> 01:13:21,516
When the Indonesians
actually began to run out of arms in 1978,
1107
01:13:21,567 --> 01:13:25,162
the Carter administration moved in
and increased arms sales,
1108
01:13:25,567 --> 01:13:27,603
and other western countries did the same.
1109
01:13:27,647 --> 01:13:29,877
Canada, England... Holland...
1110
01:13:29,927 --> 01:13:32,122
Everybody who could make a buck
was in there,
1111
01:13:32,167 --> 01:13:34,681
trying to make sure
they could kill more Timorese.
1112
01:13:35,687 --> 01:13:38,565
There is no western concern
for issues of aggression,
1113
01:13:38,607 --> 01:13:40,598
atrocities, human rights abuses and so on
1114
01:13:40,647 --> 01:13:42,638
if there's a profit to be made from them.
1115
01:13:42,687 --> 01:13:46,077
Nothing could show it more clearly
than this case.
1116
01:13:48,447 --> 01:13:50,517
It wasn't that nobody had heard of East Timor.
1117
01:13:50,567 --> 01:13:52,558
Remember there was plenty of coverage
1118
01:13:52,607 --> 01:13:55,167
in The New York Times and elsewhere
before the invasion.
1119
01:13:56,167 --> 01:13:59,716
The reason was there was concern
over the break-up of the Portuguese empire
1120
01:13:59,767 --> 01:14:01,246
and what that would mean.
1121
01:14:01,287 --> 01:14:05,644
There was fear it would lead to independence,
or Russian influence, or whatever.
1122
01:14:05,687 --> 01:14:08,485
Ater the Indonesians invaded,
the coverage dropped.
1123
01:14:08,527 --> 01:14:11,246
There was some,
but it was strictly from the point of view
1124
01:14:11,287 --> 01:14:13,596
of the State Department
and Indonesian generals.
1125
01:14:13,647 --> 01:14:15,638
Never a Timorese refugee.
1126
01:14:19,127 --> 01:14:23,006
As the atrocities reached their maximum peak
in 1978,
1127
01:14:23,047 --> 01:14:25,038
when it really was becoming genocidal,
1128
01:14:25,087 --> 01:14:27,920
coverage dropped to zero
in the United States and Canada,
1129
01:14:27,967 --> 01:14:29,958
the two countries I've looked at closely.
1130
01:14:30,007 --> 01:14:31,520
Literally dropped to zero.
1131
01:14:33,367 --> 01:14:39,761
All this was going on at exactly the same time
as the great protest of outrage over Cambodia.
1132
01:14:39,807 --> 01:14:42,526
The level of atrocities was comparable.
1133
01:14:42,567 --> 01:14:46,446
In relative terms
it was probably considerably higher in Timor.
1134
01:14:48,687 --> 01:14:53,920
It turns out that right in Cambodia in the
preceding years, 1970 through 1975,
1135
01:14:53,967 --> 01:14:57,357
there was also a comparable atrocity
for which we were responsible.
1136
01:15:02,087 --> 01:15:04,647
The major US attack against Cambodia
1137
01:15:04,687 --> 01:15:07,440
started with the bombings of the early 1970s.
1138
01:15:07,487 --> 01:15:10,126
They reached a peak in 1973,
1139
01:15:10,167 --> 01:15:12,283
and they continued up till 1975.
1140
01:15:12,327 --> 01:15:15,000
They were directed against inner Cambodia.
1141
01:15:15,047 --> 01:15:18,562
Very little is known about them,
because the media wanted it to be secret.
1142
01:15:18,607 --> 01:15:21,963
They knew it was going on. They just
didn't want to know what was happening.
1143
01:15:24,047 --> 01:15:28,040
The CIA estimates about 600,000 killed
during that five-year period,
1144
01:15:28,087 --> 01:15:32,205
which is mostly either US bombing,
or a US-sponsored war.
1145
01:15:32,247 --> 01:15:35,717
So that's pretty significant killing.
1146
01:15:35,767 --> 01:15:38,486
Also, the conditions
in which it let Cambodia were such
1147
01:15:38,527 --> 01:15:43,123
that high US officials predicted that about
a million people would die in the atermath
1148
01:15:43,167 --> 01:15:47,240
just from hunger and disease
because of the wreckage of the country.
1149
01:15:48,647 --> 01:15:51,844
Pretty good evidence
from US government and scholarly sources
1150
01:15:51,887 --> 01:15:56,119
that the intense bombardment
was a significant force - maybe a critical force -
1151
01:15:56,167 --> 01:16:00,638
in building up peasant support for the Khmer
Rouge who were a pretty marginal element.
1152
01:16:00,687 --> 01:16:02,678
Well, that's just the wrong story.
1153
01:16:03,607 --> 01:16:05,404
Ater 1975,
1154
01:16:05,447 --> 01:16:08,007
atrocities continued,
and that became the right story -
1155
01:16:08,047 --> 01:16:10,242
now they're being carried out by the bad guys.
1156
01:16:11,247 --> 01:16:12,999
Well, it was bad enough.
1157
01:16:13,047 --> 01:16:16,960
In fact, current estimates are... well, they vary.
1158
01:16:17,007 --> 01:16:20,204
The CIA claim 50,000 to 100,000 people killed,
1159
01:16:20,247 --> 01:16:24,320
and maybe another million or so
who died one way or another.
1160
01:16:26,167 --> 01:16:29,876
Michael Vickery is the one person
who's given a really close, detailed analysis.
1161
01:16:29,927 --> 01:16:33,681
His figure is maybe
750,000 deaths above the normal.
1162
01:16:33,727 --> 01:16:38,517
Others like Ben Kiernan suggest higher figures,
but so far without a detailed analysis.
1163
01:16:38,567 --> 01:16:40,000
Anyway, it was terrible.
1164
01:16:40,047 --> 01:16:41,321
No doubt about it.
1165
01:16:41,367 --> 01:16:44,325
Although the atrocities - the real atrocities -
were bad enough,
1166
01:16:44,367 --> 01:16:47,677
they weren't quite good enough
for the purposes needed.
1167
01:16:47,727 --> 01:16:50,764
Within a few weeks
ater the Khmer Rouge takeover,
1168
01:16:50,807 --> 01:16:53,446
The New York Times
was already accusing them of genocide.
1169
01:16:54,527 --> 01:16:58,520
At that point, maybe a couple of hundred
or a few thousand people had been killed.
1170
01:16:58,567 --> 01:17:02,958
And from then on,
it was a drum beat, a chorus of genocide.
1171
01:17:09,767 --> 01:17:15,876
The big bestseller on Cambodia and Pol Pot
is called Murder of a Gentle Land.
1172
01:17:15,927 --> 01:17:20,921
Up until April 17th, 1975,
it was a gentle land of peaceful, smiling people,
1173
01:17:20,967 --> 01:17:23,879
and ater that some horrible holocaust
took place.
1174
01:17:25,287 --> 01:17:29,599
Very quickly,
a figure of two million killed was hit upon.
1175
01:17:30,447 --> 01:17:33,120
In fact,
what was claimed was that the Khmer Rouge
1176
01:17:33,167 --> 01:17:35,476
boast of having murdered two million people.
1177
01:17:36,647 --> 01:17:37,966
Facts are very dramatic.
1178
01:17:38,007 --> 01:17:41,636
In the case of
atrocities committed by the official enemy,
1179
01:17:41,687 --> 01:17:47,080
extraordinary show of outrage,
exaggeration, no evidence required.
1180
01:17:47,127 --> 01:17:50,119
Faked photographs are fine, anything goes.
1181
01:17:50,167 --> 01:17:52,158
Also a vast amount of lying.
1182
01:17:53,007 --> 01:17:56,682
I mean, an amount of lying
that would have made Stalin cringe.
1183
01:17:58,087 --> 01:18:00,476
It was fraudulent,
and we know that it was fraudulent
1184
01:18:00,527 --> 01:18:03,360
by looking at the response
to comparable atrocities
1185
01:18:03,407 --> 01:18:05,523
for which the United States was responsible.
1186
01:18:08,247 --> 01:18:12,684
Early '70s Cambodia, and Timor too -
very closely paired examples.
1187
01:18:13,567 --> 01:18:15,956
Well, the media response was quite dramatic.
1188
01:18:16,927 --> 01:18:18,918
(Typewriter ribbon being turned)
1189
01:18:22,447 --> 01:18:24,199
(Typing)
1190
01:18:25,207 --> 01:18:27,198
(Typewriter pings)
1191
01:18:29,487 --> 01:18:31,478
(Ribbon turns)
1192
01:18:36,287 --> 01:18:38,084
(Typing)
1193
01:18:52,767 --> 01:18:56,362
MEYER: Back in 1980,
I taught a course at Tuts University.
1194
01:18:56,407 --> 01:18:59,524
Well, Chomsky came around to this class,
1195
01:18:59,567 --> 01:19:04,721
and he made a very powerful case
that the press underplayed the fact
1196
01:19:04,767 --> 01:19:10,285
that the Indonesian government annexed
this former Portuguese colony in 1975,
1197
01:19:10,327 --> 01:19:14,479
and that if you compare it for example with
Cambodia where there was acreage of things,
1198
01:19:14,527 --> 01:19:18,202
this was a communist atrocity, whereas
the other was not a communist atrocity.
1199
01:19:18,247 --> 01:19:21,364
Well, I got quite interested in this,
and I went to talk to
1200
01:19:21,407 --> 01:19:23,716
the then deputy foreign editor of The Times,
1201
01:19:23,767 --> 01:19:26,839
and I said, "You know,
we've had very poor coverage on this".
1202
01:19:26,887 --> 01:19:30,675
He said, "You're right. There are a dozen
atrocities around the world we don't cover.
1203
01:19:30,727 --> 01:19:33,639
This is one for various reasons", so I took it up.
1204
01:19:33,687 --> 01:19:35,803
I was working as a reporter and writer for
1205
01:19:35,847 --> 01:19:39,123
a small alternative radio programme
in upstate New York,
1206
01:19:39,167 --> 01:19:44,195
and we received audio tapes
of interviews with Timorese leaders,
1207
01:19:44,247 --> 01:19:48,160
and we were quite surprised
that given the level of American involvement
1208
01:19:48,207 --> 01:19:51,517
that there was not more coverage,
indeed practically any coverage,
1209
01:19:51,567 --> 01:19:55,640
of the large-scale Indonesian killing
in the mainstream American media.
1210
01:19:55,687 --> 01:20:00,602
We formed a small group of people
to try to monitor the situation
1211
01:20:00,647 --> 01:20:03,605
and see what we could do over time
to alert public opinion
1212
01:20:03,647 --> 01:20:05,763
to what was actually happening in East Timor.
1213
01:20:07,087 --> 01:20:11,319
There were literally about half a dozen people
who simply dedicated themselves
1214
01:20:11,367 --> 01:20:15,326
with great commitment to getting this story
to break through.
1215
01:20:15,367 --> 01:20:17,756
And they reached a couple of people
in Congress.
1216
01:20:17,807 --> 01:20:22,801
They got to me, for example. I was able
to testify at the UN and write some things.
1217
01:20:22,847 --> 01:20:24,963
They kept at it, kept at it, kept at it.
1218
01:20:25,007 --> 01:20:29,364
Whatever is known about the subject
mainly... essentially comes from their work.
1219
01:20:29,407 --> 01:20:30,726
There's not much else.
1220
01:20:30,767 --> 01:20:35,522
I wrote first an editorial
called An Unjust War in East Timor.
1221
01:20:35,567 --> 01:20:38,081
It had a map,
and it said exactly what had happened.
1222
01:20:38,127 --> 01:20:41,961
We then ran a dozen other editorials on it.
1223
01:20:42,007 --> 01:20:44,567
They were read,
entered in the Congressional Record,
1224
01:20:44,607 --> 01:20:49,362
several Congressmen took up the cause, and
something was done in Congress as a result.
1225
01:20:49,407 --> 01:20:52,797
KOHEN: The fact the editorial page
of The New York Times on Christmas Eve
1226
01:20:52,847 --> 01:20:56,522
published that editorial
put our work on a very different level,
1227
01:20:56,567 --> 01:21:03,882
and it gave a great deal of legitimacy
to something that we were trying to...
1228
01:21:03,927 --> 01:21:07,886
advance for a long time,
and that was the idea and the reality
1229
01:21:07,927 --> 01:21:11,203
that a major tragedy
was unfolding in East Timor.
1230
01:21:11,247 --> 01:21:15,559
If one takes literally various...
1231
01:21:15,607 --> 01:21:18,201
theories that Professor Chomsky puts out,
1232
01:21:18,247 --> 01:21:22,638
one would feel that there is a tacit conspiracy
1233
01:21:22,687 --> 01:21:25,918
between the establishment press
and the government in Washington
1234
01:21:25,967 --> 01:21:28,925
to focus on certain things,
and ignore certain things.
1235
01:21:28,967 --> 01:21:34,519
So that if we broke the rules that we would
instantly get a reaction, a sharp reaction
1236
01:21:34,567 --> 01:21:37,035
from the overlords in Washington
1237
01:21:37,087 --> 01:21:40,204
who would say, "Hey, what are you doing
speaking up on East Timor?
1238
01:21:40,247 --> 01:21:41,760
We're trying to keep that quiet".
1239
01:21:41,807 --> 01:21:43,081
We didn't hear a thing.
1240
01:21:43,127 --> 01:21:45,243
What we did hear, and this was quite
interesting,
1241
01:21:45,287 --> 01:21:48,085
is that there was a guy named Arnold Kohen,
1242
01:21:48,127 --> 01:21:51,836
and he became a one-person lobby.
1243
01:21:51,887 --> 01:21:55,357
I appreciate the nice things
that Karl Meyer said about me in his interview,
1244
01:21:55,407 --> 01:21:59,116
but I object to the notion that a one-man lobby
was formed, or anything like that.
1245
01:21:59,167 --> 01:22:01,158
I think that if there weren't a large network
1246
01:22:01,207 --> 01:22:03,846
composed of
the American Catholic Bishops' Conference,
1247
01:22:03,887 --> 01:22:07,277
composed of other church groups,
human rights groups,
1248
01:22:07,327 --> 01:22:09,682
composed of simply concerned citizens,
1249
01:22:09,727 --> 01:22:12,525
and others, and a network of concern
within the news media,
1250
01:22:12,567 --> 01:22:15,877
I think it would have been impossible
to do anything at all at any time,
1251
01:22:15,927 --> 01:22:20,159
and it would have been impossible to sustain
things for as long as they've been sustained.
1252
01:22:20,207 --> 01:22:25,201
MEYER: Professor Chomsky and many people
who engage in this kind of press analysis
1253
01:22:25,247 --> 01:22:29,286
have one thing in common - most of them
have never worked for a newspaper,
1254
01:22:29,327 --> 01:22:32,763
many of them know very little
about how newspapers work.
1255
01:22:32,807 --> 01:22:36,516
When Chomsky came around, he had with him
1256
01:22:36,567 --> 01:22:40,116
a file of all the coverage
in The New York Times, The Washington Post,
1257
01:22:40,167 --> 01:22:42,078
and other papers of East Timor,
1258
01:22:42,127 --> 01:22:47,121
and he would go to the meticulous degree
that if, for example, The London Times
1259
01:22:47,167 --> 01:22:50,398
had a piece on East Timor,
and then it appeared in The New York Times,
1260
01:22:50,447 --> 01:22:51,846
that if a paragraph was cut out,
1261
01:22:51,887 --> 01:22:56,563
he'd compare, and he'd say,
"Look - this key paragraph right near the end
1262
01:22:56,607 --> 01:22:58,837
which is what tells the whole story
was let out
1263
01:22:58,887 --> 01:23:02,482
of The New York Times' version
of the London Times' thing."
1264
01:23:06,247 --> 01:23:09,876
CHOMSKY: There was a story in The London
Times which was pretty accurate.
1265
01:23:09,927 --> 01:23:13,556
The New York Times revised it radically.
They didn't just leave a paragraph out.
1266
01:23:13,607 --> 01:23:16,360
They revised it,
and gave it a totally different cast.
1267
01:23:30,367 --> 01:23:34,246
It was then picked up by Newsweek,
giving it The New York Times' cast.
1268
01:23:35,527 --> 01:23:37,518
It ended up being a whitewash,
1269
01:23:37,567 --> 01:23:39,922
whereas the original was an atrocity story.
1270
01:23:41,407 --> 01:23:44,160
So, I said to Chomsky at the time,
1271
01:23:44,207 --> 01:23:50,601
"Well, it may be that you're misinterpreting
ignorance, haste, deadline pressure, etcetera,
1272
01:23:50,647 --> 01:23:54,435
for some kind of determined effort
to suppress an element of the story."
1273
01:23:54,487 --> 01:23:57,877
He said, "Well, if it happened once,
or twice, or three times
1274
01:23:57,927 --> 01:24:01,078
I might agree with you,
but if it happens a dozen times,
1275
01:24:01,127 --> 01:24:03,595
Mr Meyer,
I think there's something else at work".
1276
01:24:03,647 --> 01:24:07,925
It's not a matter of happening one time,
two, five, a hundred. It happened all the time.
1277
01:24:07,967 --> 01:24:13,439
I said, "Professor Chomsky, having been
in this business, it happens a dozen times.
1278
01:24:13,487 --> 01:24:16,479
These are very imperfect institutions".
1279
01:24:16,527 --> 01:24:19,997
When they did give coverage,
it was from the point of view of...
1280
01:24:20,047 --> 01:24:22,083
it was a whitewash of the United States.
1281
01:24:22,127 --> 01:24:23,879
Now, you know, that's not an error.
1282
01:24:23,927 --> 01:24:26,157
That's systematic, consistent behaviour,
1283
01:24:26,207 --> 01:24:28,960
in this case without even any exception.
1284
01:24:29,007 --> 01:24:31,919
This is a much more subtle process...
1285
01:24:34,927 --> 01:24:36,679
...than you get...
1286
01:24:37,847 --> 01:24:40,884
...in the kind of sledgehammer rhetoric
1287
01:24:40,927 --> 01:24:47,275
of the people that make an A to B equation
between what the government does,
1288
01:24:47,327 --> 01:24:49,477
what people think, and what newspapers say.
1289
01:24:50,727 --> 01:24:52,718
That...
1290
01:24:52,767 --> 01:24:58,160
That sometimes what The Times does
can make an enormous difference.
1291
01:24:58,207 --> 01:25:02,041
At other times, it has no influence whatsoever.
1292
01:25:02,087 --> 01:25:03,805
So...
1293
01:25:03,847 --> 01:25:07,601
one of the greatest tragedies of our age
is still happening in East Timor.
1294
01:25:07,647 --> 01:25:10,400
The Indonesians have killed
up to a third of the population.
1295
01:25:10,447 --> 01:25:12,597
They're in concentration camps.
1296
01:25:12,647 --> 01:25:17,163
They conduct large-scale military campaigns
against the people who are resisting,
1297
01:25:17,207 --> 01:25:20,005
campaigns with names like Operation
Eradicate,
1298
01:25:20,047 --> 01:25:22,436
or Operation Clean Sweep.
1299
01:25:22,487 --> 01:25:26,685
Timorese women are subjected
to a forced birth control programme,
1300
01:25:26,727 --> 01:25:31,881
in addition to bringing in a constant stream
of Indonesian settlers to take over the land.
1301
01:25:33,727 --> 01:25:37,117
Whenever people are brave enough
to take to the streets in demonstrations
1302
01:25:37,167 --> 01:25:40,284
or show the least sign of resistance,
they just massacre them.
1303
01:25:41,287 --> 01:25:45,599
It's sort of like Indonesia, if we allow them
to continue to stay in East Timor -
1304
01:25:45,647 --> 01:25:49,003
the international community -
they will simply digest East Timor
1305
01:25:49,047 --> 01:25:53,245
and turn it into...
they're trying to turn it into cash crop.
1306
01:25:53,287 --> 01:25:58,236
I mean, this is way beyond just demonstrating
this subservience of the media to power.
1307
01:25:58,287 --> 01:26:02,599
I mean, they have real complicity in genocide
in this case.
1308
01:26:02,647 --> 01:26:07,675
The reason that the atrocities can go on
is because nobody knows about them.
1309
01:26:07,727 --> 01:26:11,720
If anyone knew about them,
there'd be protests and pressure to stop them.
1310
01:26:11,767 --> 01:26:16,204
So therefore, by suppressing the facts,
the media are making a major contribution
1311
01:26:16,247 --> 01:26:22,117
to some of... probably the worst act of genocide
since the Holocaust.
1312
01:26:22,167 --> 01:26:27,082
FRUM: You say that what the media do is to
ignore certain kinds of atrocities
1313
01:26:27,127 --> 01:26:29,561
that are committed by us and our friends,
1314
01:26:29,607 --> 01:26:34,635
and to play up enormously atrocities
that are committed by them and our enemies.
1315
01:26:34,687 --> 01:26:38,043
And you posit that
there's a test of integrity and moral honesty
1316
01:26:38,087 --> 01:26:41,762
which is to have
a kind of equality of treatment of corpses.
1317
01:26:41,807 --> 01:26:46,085
I mean, every dead person should be in
principle equal to every other dead person.
1318
01:26:46,127 --> 01:26:49,802
CHOMSKY: That's not what I say.
- I'm glad it's not, because it's not what you do.
1319
01:26:49,847 --> 01:26:53,362
Of course it's not what I do.
Nor would I say it. In fact, I say the opposite.
1320
01:26:53,407 --> 01:26:57,082
What I say is we should be
responsible for our own actions primarily.
1321
01:26:57,127 --> 01:27:00,403
Because your method is not only
to ignore the corpses created by them,
1322
01:27:00,447 --> 01:27:03,598
but also to ignore corpses
that are created by neither side,
1323
01:27:03,647 --> 01:27:05,922
that are irrelevant to your ideological agenda.
1324
01:27:05,967 --> 01:27:08,356
- That's totally untrue.
- Let me give you an example.
1325
01:27:08,407 --> 01:27:14,642
Um... one of your own causes that you take very
seriously is the cause of the Palestinians.
1326
01:27:14,687 --> 01:27:18,043
And a Palestinian corpse
weighs very heavily on your conscience,
1327
01:27:18,087 --> 01:27:20,078
and yet a Kurdish corpse does not.
1328
01:27:20,127 --> 01:27:24,678
That's not true at all. I've been involved
in Kurdish support groups for years.
1329
01:27:24,727 --> 01:27:26,922
That's... It's simply false.
1330
01:27:26,967 --> 01:27:28,286
Just ask the Kurdish...
1331
01:27:28,327 --> 01:27:30,124
Ask the people who are involved in...
1332
01:27:30,167 --> 01:27:33,443
You know, they come to me,
I sign their petitions, and so on and so forth.
1333
01:27:33,487 --> 01:27:37,036
If you look at the things we've written.
Let's take a look...
1334
01:27:37,087 --> 01:27:38,805
I'm not Amnesty International.
1335
01:27:38,847 --> 01:27:41,566
I can't do everything.
I'm a single human person.
1336
01:27:41,607 --> 01:27:47,477
But if you read... Take a look, say, at the book
that Edward Herman and I wrote on this topic.
1337
01:27:48,367 --> 01:27:51,757
In it we discuss three kinds of atrocities -
1338
01:27:51,807 --> 01:27:54,401
what we call benign bloodbaths,
1339
01:27:54,447 --> 01:27:56,119
which nobody cares about,
1340
01:27:56,167 --> 01:27:58,920
constructive bloodbaths,
which are the ones we like,
1341
01:27:58,967 --> 01:28:02,277
and nefarious bloodbaths,
which are the ones the bad guys do.
1342
01:28:02,327 --> 01:28:06,684
The principle that I think we ought to follow
is not the one that you stated.
1343
01:28:06,727 --> 01:28:09,002
You know, it's a very simple, ethical point.
1344
01:28:09,047 --> 01:28:13,404
You're responsible for
the predictable consequences of your actions.
1345
01:28:13,447 --> 01:28:17,520
You're not responsible for the predictable
consequences of somebody else's actions.
1346
01:28:17,567 --> 01:28:20,957
The most important thing for me and for you
1347
01:28:21,007 --> 01:28:23,840
is to think about
the consequences of your actions.
1348
01:28:23,887 --> 01:28:25,639
What can you affect?
1349
01:28:25,687 --> 01:28:29,760
These are the things to keep in mind.
These are not just academic exercises.
1350
01:28:29,807 --> 01:28:34,085
We're not analysing the media on Mars,
or in the 18th Century, or something like that.
1351
01:28:34,127 --> 01:28:39,724
We're dealing with real human beings who are
suffering, and dying, and being tortured,
1352
01:28:39,767 --> 01:28:44,158
and starving because of policies
that we are involved in.
1353
01:28:44,207 --> 01:28:49,042
We as citizens of democratic societies
are directly involved in and are responsible for,
1354
01:28:49,087 --> 01:28:54,445
and what the media are doing is ensuring
that we do not act on our responsibilities,
1355
01:28:54,487 --> 01:28:59,925
and that the interests of power are served,
not the needs of the suffering people,
1356
01:28:59,967 --> 01:29:03,084
and not even the needs of the American people
who would be horrified
1357
01:29:03,127 --> 01:29:06,597
if they realised
the blood that's dripping from their hands
1358
01:29:06,647 --> 01:29:12,244
because of the way they're allowing themselves
to be deluded and manipulated by the system.
1359
01:29:28,527 --> 01:29:30,404
What about the Third World?
1360
01:29:30,447 --> 01:29:34,156
Well, despite everything,
and it's pretty ugly and awful,
1361
01:29:34,207 --> 01:29:36,084
these struggles are not over.
1362
01:29:36,127 --> 01:29:40,996
The struggle for freedom and independence
never is completely over.
1363
01:29:46,927 --> 01:29:50,158
Their courage, in fact, is really remarkable.
1364
01:29:50,207 --> 01:29:51,276
Amazing.
1365
01:29:51,327 --> 01:29:55,684
I've personally had the privilege,
and it is a privilege, of witnessing it a few times,
1366
01:29:55,727 --> 01:29:58,605
in villages in Southeast Asia
and Central America,
1367
01:29:58,647 --> 01:30:01,115
and recently in the occupied West Bank,
1368
01:30:01,167 --> 01:30:03,158
and it is astonishing to see.
1369
01:30:06,367 --> 01:30:08,961
And it's always amazing -
at least to me it's amazing.
1370
01:30:09,007 --> 01:30:12,602
I can't understand it.
It's also very moving and inspiring.
1371
01:30:12,647 --> 01:30:14,444
In fact, it's kind of awe-inspiring.
1372
01:30:14,487 --> 01:30:17,240
Now, they rely very crucially
1373
01:30:17,287 --> 01:30:20,677
on a very slim margin for survival
1374
01:30:20,727 --> 01:30:25,403
that's provided by dissidence and turbulence
within the imperial societies,
1375
01:30:25,447 --> 01:30:29,725
and how large that margin is
is for us to determine.
1376
01:31:08,446 --> 01:31:10,084
In today's On The Spot assignment,
1377
01:31:10,126 --> 01:31:12,924
we're going to see
just what's behind the making of movies.
1378
01:31:13,566 --> 01:31:15,238
The director and the crew
1379
01:31:15,286 --> 01:31:16,958
are shooting a documentary film.
1380
01:31:17,006 --> 01:31:19,395
Let's take a closer look.
1381
01:31:19,446 --> 01:31:22,279
Bob, this word "documentary",
1382
01:31:22,326 --> 01:31:26,239
what would you say is the difference between
a documentary film and a feature movie?
1383
01:31:26,286 --> 01:31:28,277
Well, there are a good many differences.
1384
01:31:28,326 --> 01:31:32,478
One would be length. Generally speaking,
documentaries are shorter than feature films.
1385
01:31:32,526 --> 01:31:36,405
Also, documentaries have something to say
in the way of a message.
1386
01:31:36,446 --> 01:31:38,402
They are informational films.
1387
01:31:38,446 --> 01:31:43,315
Also, another term that's used interchangeably
with documentary is the word "actuality".
1388
01:31:43,366 --> 01:31:47,598
PRESENTER: Bob, is this the thing you hold up
in front of the camera before each scene?
1389
01:31:47,646 --> 01:31:49,159
BOB: This is a clapperboard, yes.
1390
01:31:49,206 --> 01:31:52,278
This identifies on the visual camera
1391
01:31:52,326 --> 01:31:54,715
the scene number and the take number.
1392
01:31:54,766 --> 01:31:57,883
And also, as you heard, on the soundtrack,
1393
01:31:57,926 --> 01:32:01,123
the editor back at the studio
puts the two pieces of film together,
1394
01:32:01,166 --> 01:32:03,361
matches where the lips of the clapper meet,
1395
01:32:03,406 --> 01:32:04,885
and there you are in synch.
1396
01:32:04,926 --> 01:32:07,599
MILLER:
Before the break, you were mentioning
1397
01:32:07,646 --> 01:32:12,003
the media putting forth the information
that the power elite want.
1398
01:32:12,046 --> 01:32:16,676
I'm not sure if I understand.
How does the power elite do this?
1399
01:32:16,726 --> 01:32:19,240
Why do we stand for it?
Why does it work so well?
1400
01:32:19,286 --> 01:32:22,483
Well, I think...
I mean, there are really two questions here.
1401
01:32:22,526 --> 01:32:26,235
One - is this picture of the media true?
And there, you have to look at the evidence.
1402
01:32:26,286 --> 01:32:29,198
I've given one example,
and that shouldn't convince anybody.
1403
01:32:29,246 --> 01:32:32,044
One has to look at a lot of evidence
to see whether this is true.
1404
01:32:32,086 --> 01:32:34,395
I think anyone who investigates it will find out
1405
01:32:34,446 --> 01:32:37,244
that the evidence to support it
is simply overwhelming.
1406
01:32:37,286 --> 01:32:41,325
It's probably one of the best supported
conclusions in the social sciences.
1407
01:32:41,366 --> 01:32:43,163
The other question is, how does it work?
1408
01:32:43,206 --> 01:32:47,518
- Noam Chomsky?
- I'm the... I'm the media guy.
1409
01:32:47,566 --> 01:32:50,717
What would you like?
I got you an International Herald Tribune.
1410
01:32:50,766 --> 01:32:54,759
Anything in a Western language which doesn't
include Dutch. What have you got?
1411
01:32:54,806 --> 01:32:57,718
- Financial Times.
- Financial Times, absolutely.
1412
01:32:57,766 --> 01:33:00,280
That's the only paper that tells the truth.
1413
01:33:00,326 --> 01:33:03,079
You get the one
where they've been debating back and forth?
1414
01:33:03,126 --> 01:33:05,321
NRC Handelsblad.
1415
01:33:05,366 --> 01:33:06,958
CHOMSKY: Handelsblad?
1416
01:33:16,606 --> 01:33:19,439
- Train to?
- Ammerswurth.
1417
01:33:20,766 --> 01:33:24,805
CHOMSKY: Well, this evening's programme
is scheduled as a debate,
1418
01:33:24,846 --> 01:33:26,723
which puzzled me all the way through.
1419
01:33:26,766 --> 01:33:28,358
There are some problems.
1420
01:33:28,406 --> 01:33:32,001
One problem is that
no proposition has been set forth.
1421
01:33:32,046 --> 01:33:35,436
As I understand "debate",
people advocate or oppose something.
1422
01:33:35,486 --> 01:33:37,522
Rather more sensibly,
1423
01:33:37,566 --> 01:33:39,875
a topic has been proposed for discussion.
1424
01:33:39,926 --> 01:33:43,282
Er... the topic is manufacture of consent.
1425
01:33:44,206 --> 01:33:46,879
BOLKESTEIN: It's unusual
for a member of the government
1426
01:33:46,926 --> 01:33:48,598
to debate with a professor in public.
1427
01:33:48,646 --> 01:33:50,557
It hasn't happened in Holland before.
1428
01:33:50,606 --> 01:33:53,325
I don't think it oten happens elsewhere.
1429
01:33:55,726 --> 01:33:57,318
(Bell)
1430
01:33:57,366 --> 01:33:59,357
Mr Bolkestein, the floor is yours.
1431
01:33:59,406 --> 01:34:02,239
BOLKESTEIN: Now, we all know
1432
01:34:02,286 --> 01:34:05,961
that a theory can never be established
merely by examples.
1433
01:34:06,006 --> 01:34:07,997
It can only be established
1434
01:34:08,046 --> 01:34:11,243
by showing some internal, inherent logic.
1435
01:34:11,286 --> 01:34:13,754
Professor Chomsky has not done so.
1436
01:34:13,806 --> 01:34:15,319
Professor Chomsky?
1437
01:34:15,366 --> 01:34:19,996
CHOMSKY: He's right to say you can't just pick
examples. You have to do them rationally.
1438
01:34:20,046 --> 01:34:22,514
That's why we compared examples.
1439
01:34:22,566 --> 01:34:28,038
The truth is that things are not as simple
as Professor Chomsky maintains.
1440
01:34:29,086 --> 01:34:31,646
Another of Professor Chomsky's case studies
1441
01:34:31,686 --> 01:34:35,725
concerns the treatment that
Cambodia has received in the Western press.
1442
01:34:35,766 --> 01:34:39,156
Here, he goes badly off the rails.
1443
01:34:39,206 --> 01:34:41,003
(Laughter)
1444
01:34:41,926 --> 01:34:43,644
We didn't discuss Cambodia.
1445
01:34:43,686 --> 01:34:46,280
We compared Cambodia with East Timor,
1446
01:34:46,326 --> 01:34:48,965
two very closely paired examples.
1447
01:34:49,006 --> 01:34:52,635
And we gave approximately
300 pages of detail covering this
1448
01:34:52,686 --> 01:34:54,597
in Political Economy of Human Rights,
1449
01:34:54,646 --> 01:34:59,083
including a reference to every article
we could discover about Cambodia.
1450
01:34:59,126 --> 01:35:03,085
BOLKESTEIN: Many Western intellectuals
do not like to face the facts
1451
01:35:03,126 --> 01:35:08,041
and balk at the conclusions
that any untutored person would draw.
1452
01:35:08,086 --> 01:35:11,078
Many people are very irritated
1453
01:35:11,126 --> 01:35:15,358
by the fact that we exposed
the extraordinary deceit over Cambodia
1454
01:35:15,406 --> 01:35:18,876
and paired it with the simultaneous suppression
1455
01:35:18,926 --> 01:35:22,441
of the US-supported,
ongoing atrocities in Timor.
1456
01:35:22,486 --> 01:35:23,965
People don't like that.
1457
01:35:24,006 --> 01:35:27,681
For one thing, we were challenging
the right to lie in defence of the state.
1458
01:35:27,726 --> 01:35:29,717
For another thing, we were exposing
1459
01:35:29,766 --> 01:35:34,317
the apologetics and support
for actual ongoing atrocities.
1460
01:35:34,366 --> 01:35:35,879
That doesn't make you popular.
1461
01:35:35,926 --> 01:35:36,995
(Bell)
1462
01:35:38,206 --> 01:35:41,676
BOLKESTEIN: Where did he learn
about the atrocities in East Timor
1463
01:35:41,726 --> 01:35:43,364
or in Central America,
1464
01:35:43,406 --> 01:35:47,524
if not in the same free press
which he so derides?
1465
01:35:47,566 --> 01:35:50,717
You can find out where I learned about them
by looking at my footnotes -
1466
01:35:50,766 --> 01:35:54,554
from Human Rights reports,
from church reports, from refugee studies,
1467
01:35:54,606 --> 01:35:56,836
and extensively, from the Australian press.
1468
01:35:56,886 --> 01:35:59,320
Nothing from the American press -
it was silenced.
1469
01:36:00,726 --> 01:36:04,435
Chairman, this is an attempt
at intellectual intimidation.
1470
01:36:04,486 --> 01:36:07,125
These are the ways of the bully.
1471
01:36:08,206 --> 01:36:11,960
Professor Chomsky uses
the oldest debating trick on record.
1472
01:36:12,006 --> 01:36:14,122
He erects a man of straw
1473
01:36:14,966 --> 01:36:17,764
and proceeds to hack away at him.
1474
01:36:17,806 --> 01:36:19,603
(Bell)
1475
01:36:19,646 --> 01:36:22,956
Professor Chomsky calls this
the "manufacture of consent".
1476
01:36:23,006 --> 01:36:26,203
I call it "the creation of consensus".
1477
01:36:26,246 --> 01:36:30,558
In Holland, we call it "Draagvlak",
which means "foundation".
1478
01:36:30,606 --> 01:36:33,404
Professor Chomsky thinks it is deceitful.
1479
01:36:33,446 --> 01:36:34,879
But it is not.
1480
01:36:34,926 --> 01:36:37,076
In a representative democracy,
1481
01:36:37,126 --> 01:36:41,165
it means winning people for one's point of view.
1482
01:36:41,206 --> 01:36:43,197
But I do not think
1483
01:36:43,246 --> 01:36:46,682
that Professor Chomsky believes
in representative democracy.
1484
01:36:46,726 --> 01:36:49,365
I think he believes in direct democracy.
1485
01:36:49,406 --> 01:36:51,636
With Rosa Luxemburg,
1486
01:36:51,686 --> 01:36:57,636
he longs for the creative, spontaneous,
self-correcting force of mass action.
1487
01:36:57,686 --> 01:37:01,076
That is the vision of the anarchist.
1488
01:37:01,126 --> 01:37:03,640
It is also a boy's dream.
1489
01:37:03,686 --> 01:37:05,278
(Ripple of laughter)
1490
01:37:05,326 --> 01:37:08,602
Those who believe in democracy and freedom
1491
01:37:08,646 --> 01:37:12,605
have a serious task ahead of them.
1492
01:37:12,646 --> 01:37:15,114
What they should be doing, in my view,
1493
01:37:15,166 --> 01:37:20,240
is dedicating their efforts to helping
the despised common people
1494
01:37:20,286 --> 01:37:22,402
to struggle for their rights
1495
01:37:22,446 --> 01:37:27,520
and to realise the democratic goals
that constantly surface throughout history.
1496
01:37:27,566 --> 01:37:30,842
They should be serving not power and privilege
1497
01:37:30,886 --> 01:37:32,524
but rather their victims.
1498
01:37:33,366 --> 01:37:35,482
Freedom and democracy are, by now,
1499
01:37:35,526 --> 01:37:38,040
not merely values to be treasured.
1500
01:37:38,086 --> 01:37:42,204
They are quite possibly
the prerequisite to survival.
1501
01:37:42,246 --> 01:37:44,885
It's a conspiracy theory, pure and simple.
1502
01:37:44,926 --> 01:37:46,917
It is not borne out by the facts.
1503
01:37:46,966 --> 01:37:51,881
Mr Chairman, I have to go to Amsterdam.
If you'll excuse me, I'm leaving.
1504
01:37:51,926 --> 01:37:53,405
(Laughter)
1505
01:37:57,006 --> 01:37:58,837
CHAIRMAN: One thing is sure.
1506
01:38:00,326 --> 01:38:03,636
Their consent has not been manufactured
tonight.
1507
01:38:06,166 --> 01:38:10,956
CHOMSKY: There is nothing more remote from
what I'm discussing than a conspiracy theory.
1508
01:38:13,086 --> 01:38:17,557
If I give an analysis
of, say, the economic system,
1509
01:38:17,606 --> 01:38:22,043
and I point out that General Motors tries
to maximise profit and market share,
1510
01:38:22,086 --> 01:38:24,042
that's not a conspiracy theory.
1511
01:38:24,086 --> 01:38:26,122
That's an institutional analysis.
1512
01:38:26,166 --> 01:38:28,396
That has nothing to do with conspiracies.
1513
01:38:28,446 --> 01:38:31,722
And that's precisely the sense
in which we're talking about the media.
1514
01:38:31,766 --> 01:38:34,917
The phrase "conspiracy theory"
is one that's constantly brought up.
1515
01:38:34,966 --> 01:38:39,244
And I think its effect, simply,
is to discourage institutional analysis.
1516
01:38:42,046 --> 01:38:45,834
WINTONICK: You think there's a connection
about what the government wants us to know
1517
01:38:45,886 --> 01:38:47,365
and what the media tell us?
1518
01:38:47,406 --> 01:38:49,078
It's not Communism,
1519
01:38:49,126 --> 01:38:51,117
but I think, to a certain point,
1520
01:38:51,166 --> 01:38:53,077
it is sensitised.
1521
01:38:53,126 --> 01:38:56,436
They don't always tell the truth,
the way it goes, huh?
1522
01:38:56,486 --> 01:38:57,680
You got that right.
1523
01:38:57,726 --> 01:39:01,765
Do you think the information you're getting
from this paper is biased in any way?
1524
01:39:01,806 --> 01:39:03,125
Oh, yeah.
1525
01:39:03,166 --> 01:39:06,795
I think, by and large, it's well done.
1526
01:39:06,846 --> 01:39:09,838
You get both sides of the stories.
1527
01:39:09,886 --> 01:39:14,402
You get the liberal side
and the conservative side, so to speak.
1528
01:39:14,446 --> 01:39:19,122
I don't think you get a very balanced picture
because they only have 20 seconds
1529
01:39:19,166 --> 01:39:22,715
for a news item, or whatever,
and they're going to pick out, a highlight.
1530
01:39:22,766 --> 01:39:26,964
Every network is going to cover the same
highlight. And that's all you're going to see.
1531
01:39:27,006 --> 01:39:29,520
You get what they want you to hear.
1532
01:39:30,926 --> 01:39:33,121
You think they're biased in some way, then?
1533
01:39:33,166 --> 01:39:34,155
Nah.
1534
01:39:34,926 --> 01:39:36,405
Here we go.
1535
01:39:36,446 --> 01:39:38,676
See you later.
1536
01:39:46,046 --> 01:39:49,118
Is it possible for the lights to get a little brighter
1537
01:39:49,166 --> 01:39:51,396
so I can see somebody out there?
1538
01:39:51,446 --> 01:39:54,119
STUDENT:
Yeah, for the last hour and 41 minutes,
1539
01:39:54,166 --> 01:39:58,079
you've been whining about how the elite
and how the government have been...
1540
01:39:58,126 --> 01:40:01,243
using thought control
to keep radicals like yourself
1541
01:40:01,286 --> 01:40:03,402
out of the public limelight.
1542
01:40:03,446 --> 01:40:04,959
Now, you're here.
1543
01:40:05,006 --> 01:40:07,281
I don't see any CIA men waiting to drag you off.
1544
01:40:07,326 --> 01:40:11,877
You were in the paper. That's where everyone
here heard you were coming from, in the paper.
1545
01:40:11,926 --> 01:40:14,679
I'm sure they're going to publish your comments
in the paper.
1546
01:40:14,726 --> 01:40:18,162
In a lot of countries, you would have been shot
for what you have done today.
1547
01:40:18,206 --> 01:40:19,798
So, what are you whining about?
1548
01:40:19,846 --> 01:40:23,043
We are allowing you to speak.
I don't see any thought control.
1549
01:40:23,086 --> 01:40:27,398
CHOMSKY: First of all, I haven't said one word
about my being kept out of the limelight.
1550
01:40:27,446 --> 01:40:29,721
The way it works here is quite different.
1551
01:40:29,766 --> 01:40:32,758
I don't think you heard what I was saying.
The way it works here is,
1552
01:40:32,806 --> 01:40:38,039
that there is a system of shaping and control,
which gives a certain perception of the world.
1553
01:40:38,086 --> 01:40:41,601
I gave one example. I'll give you sources
where you can find thousands more.
1554
01:40:41,646 --> 01:40:45,241
And it has nothing to do with me.
It has to do with marginalising the public
1555
01:40:45,286 --> 01:40:47,516
and ensuring that they don't get in the way
1556
01:40:47,566 --> 01:40:51,400
of elites who are supposed to run things
without interference.
1557
01:40:51,446 --> 01:40:54,677
KLEINHAUS:
In a review of The Chomsky Reader,
1558
01:40:54,726 --> 01:40:57,638
it was written that,
"As he's been forced to the margins,
1559
01:40:57,686 --> 01:40:59,517
he's become strident and rigid."
1560
01:40:59,566 --> 01:41:03,115
Do you feel this categorisation
of your later writings is accurate
1561
01:41:03,166 --> 01:41:06,681
and that you've been a victim
of this sort of process you've been describing?
1562
01:41:06,726 --> 01:41:08,603
Well, the business about being forced...
1563
01:41:08,646 --> 01:41:11,604
Other people will have to judge
about the stridency. I won't...
1564
01:41:11,646 --> 01:41:14,558
I don't believe it.
But that's for other people to judge.
1565
01:41:14,606 --> 01:41:17,325
But the matter of being forced
to the margins is one of fact.
1566
01:41:17,366 --> 01:41:20,005
The fact is the opposite of what is claimed.
1567
01:41:20,046 --> 01:41:24,244
The fact is, it's much easier to gain access
to even the major media now
1568
01:41:24,286 --> 01:41:25,844
than it was 20 years ago.
1569
01:41:25,886 --> 01:41:28,400
MO YERS:
You've dealt in such unpopular truths
1570
01:41:28,446 --> 01:41:31,563
and have been such a lonely figure
as a consequence of that.
1571
01:41:31,606 --> 01:41:35,042
Do you ever regret
either that you took the stand you took,
1572
01:41:35,086 --> 01:41:38,795
have written the things you have written,
or that we had listened to you earlier?
1573
01:41:39,606 --> 01:41:43,645
Er... I don't. I mean, there are particular things
which I would do differently.
1574
01:41:43,686 --> 01:41:45,802
Because you think about things differently.
1575
01:41:45,846 --> 01:41:49,680
- But, in general, I would say I do not regret it.
- Do you like being controversial?
1576
01:41:49,726 --> 01:41:51,637
No, it's a nuisance.
1577
01:41:51,686 --> 01:41:54,439
Because this medium pays little attention
to dissenters,
1578
01:41:54,486 --> 01:41:56,124
not just Noam Chomsky,
1579
01:41:56,166 --> 01:42:00,045
but most dissenters do not get
much of a hearing in this medium.
1580
01:42:00,086 --> 01:42:03,556
It's understandable. They wouldn't be
performing their societal function
1581
01:42:03,606 --> 01:42:06,439
if they allowed favoured truths to be challenged.
1582
01:42:09,326 --> 01:42:12,762
CHOMSKY: Now, notice that's not true
when I cross the border anywhere.
1583
01:42:12,806 --> 01:42:16,719
So I have easy access to the media
in just about every other country in the world.
1584
01:42:16,766 --> 01:42:20,281
That's for a number of reasons.
One is that I'm primarily talking about the US.
1585
01:42:20,326 --> 01:42:22,794
And it's much less threatening.
1586
01:42:23,926 --> 01:42:27,441
Your view there is that the militarisation
of the American economy
1587
01:42:27,486 --> 01:42:32,276
essentially has come about because there are
not other means of controlling the US people.
1588
01:42:32,326 --> 01:42:35,204
CHOMSKY: In a democratic society.
It may be paradoxical,
1589
01:42:35,246 --> 01:42:40,036
but the freer the society is,
the more it's necessary to resort to devices
1590
01:42:40,086 --> 01:42:41,485
like induced fear.
1591
01:42:47,326 --> 01:42:51,956
OK, I'll go along with that. Arguably, he is
the most important intellectual alive today.
1592
01:42:52,006 --> 01:42:56,682
And if my programme can give him
500,000 people listening
1593
01:42:56,726 --> 01:42:59,194
or three-quarters of a million people listening,
1594
01:42:59,246 --> 01:43:00,759
I'll be delighted.
1595
01:43:00,806 --> 01:43:02,922
OK, Professor, in your own time.
1596
01:43:04,726 --> 01:43:10,198
Wartime planners understood
that actual war aims should not be revealed.
1597
01:43:10,246 --> 01:43:15,366
CHOMSKY: A part of the reason why the media
in Canada and Belgium, etc are more open
1598
01:43:15,406 --> 01:43:18,204
is that it just doesn't matter that much
what people think.
1599
01:43:18,246 --> 01:43:22,524
It matters very much what the politically
articulate sectors of the population,
1600
01:43:22,566 --> 01:43:25,683
those narrow minorities,
think and do in the United States,
1601
01:43:25,726 --> 01:43:28,524
because of its overwhelming dominance
on the world scene.
1602
01:43:28,566 --> 01:43:31,080
But that's also a reason
for wanting to work here.
1603
01:43:31,126 --> 01:43:33,162
...what we might call the fith freedom -
1604
01:43:33,206 --> 01:43:35,595
the freedom to rob, exploit,
1605
01:43:35,646 --> 01:43:40,515
and dominate and to curb mischief
by any feasible means.
1606
01:43:42,686 --> 01:43:45,246
It's "conclude", not "include".
1607
01:43:45,286 --> 01:43:46,639
PRODUCER: From the top.
1608
01:43:48,966 --> 01:43:53,357
CHOMSKY: The United States is ideologically
narrower in general than other countries.
1609
01:43:53,406 --> 01:43:57,797
Furthermore, the structure of the American
media is such as to pretty much eliminate
1610
01:43:57,846 --> 01:43:59,996
critical discussion.
1611
01:44:00,046 --> 01:44:03,800
Our guests are as far apart
on the Contra question
1612
01:44:03,846 --> 01:44:05,802
as American intellectuals can be.
1613
01:44:05,846 --> 01:44:08,565
CHOMSKY: If we had the slightest concern
with democracy,
1614
01:44:08,606 --> 01:44:11,518
which we do not, in our foreign affairs,
and never have,
1615
01:44:11,566 --> 01:44:14,763
we would turn to countries
where we have influence like El Salvador.
1616
01:44:14,806 --> 01:44:18,845
Now, in El Salvador,
they don't call the Archbishop bad names.
1617
01:44:18,886 --> 01:44:20,444
What they do is murder him.
1618
01:44:20,486 --> 01:44:23,637
They do not censor the press.
1619
01:44:23,686 --> 01:44:27,679
They wipe the press out. They sent the army in
to blow up the church radio station.
1620
01:44:27,726 --> 01:44:31,560
The editor of the independent paper was found
in a ditch, mutilated, and cut to pieces.
1621
01:44:31,606 --> 01:44:34,074
- Don't...
- May I continue? I did not interrupt you.
1622
01:44:34,126 --> 01:44:36,640
Don't you want to put a time value
on anything you say
1623
01:44:36,686 --> 01:44:38,756
or do you want to lie systematically on TV?
1624
01:44:38,806 --> 01:44:41,274
- I'm talking about 1980.
- You are a systematic liar.
1625
01:44:41,326 --> 01:44:45,205
- Did these things happen or not?
- Not in the context which you suggested.
1626
01:44:45,246 --> 01:44:49,762
You are a phoney, mister, and it's time
that the people read you correctly.
1627
01:44:49,806 --> 01:44:52,445
It's clear why you want to divert me
from the discussion.
1628
01:44:52,486 --> 01:44:54,716
No, it's not. We're getting tired of rubbish.
1629
01:44:54,766 --> 01:44:57,803
- But let's continue with...
- Except we can't. We're out of time.
1630
01:44:57,846 --> 01:45:00,155
Let me thank you,
John Silver and Noam Chomsky.
1631
01:45:00,206 --> 01:45:01,639
OK.
1632
01:45:04,846 --> 01:45:06,564
STUDENT: Last time you were here,
1633
01:45:06,606 --> 01:45:09,074
you spoke about how, when you go overseas,
1634
01:45:09,126 --> 01:45:11,765
you are given access to the mass media.
1635
01:45:11,806 --> 01:45:14,001
But here, that doesn't seem to be the case.
1636
01:45:14,046 --> 01:45:17,083
Has that changed at all?
Have you ever been invited
1637
01:45:17,126 --> 01:45:19,765
to appear on Nightline or Brinkley?
1638
01:45:19,806 --> 01:45:21,717
CHOMSKY: Yes, I have a couple of times
1639
01:45:21,766 --> 01:45:23,597
been invited to speak on Nightline.
1640
01:45:23,646 --> 01:45:27,480
I couldn't do it.
I had another talk and something or other.
1641
01:45:27,526 --> 01:45:30,199
To tell you the honest truth,
I don't really care very much.
1642
01:45:30,246 --> 01:45:32,396
FAIR, the media monitoring group,
1643
01:45:32,446 --> 01:45:35,244
published a very interesting study of Nightline.
1644
01:45:35,286 --> 01:45:39,074
It shows that their conception of a spectrum
of opinion is ridiculously narrow,
1645
01:45:39,126 --> 01:45:41,037
at least by European or world standards.
1646
01:46:00,086 --> 01:46:02,077
Let me tell you a personal experience.
1647
01:46:02,126 --> 01:46:04,003
I happened to be in Madison, Wisconsin,
1648
01:46:04,046 --> 01:46:06,321
on a listener-supported radio station,
1649
01:46:06,366 --> 01:46:08,357
a community radio station, a very good one.
1650
01:46:08,406 --> 01:46:12,160
It was an interview with the news director.
I'd been on the programme dozens of times,
1651
01:46:12,206 --> 01:46:13,605
usually by telephone.
1652
01:46:13,646 --> 01:46:17,764
And he's very good, he gets all sorts of people.
He started the interview by playing for me
1653
01:46:17,806 --> 01:46:21,481
a tape of an interview that he had just had
1654
01:46:21,526 --> 01:46:27,044
and had broadcast with a guy who's...
some mucky-muck in Nightline.
1655
01:46:27,086 --> 01:46:30,874
I think his name is Jeff Greenfield
or some such name.
1656
01:46:30,926 --> 01:46:32,917
Does that name mean anything?
1657
01:46:32,966 --> 01:46:36,197
I'm Jeff Greenfield from Nightline in New York.
1658
01:46:36,246 --> 01:46:39,522
We've got just a selection of guests
to analyse things.
1659
01:46:39,566 --> 01:46:42,524
Why is Noam Chomsky never on Nightline?
1660
01:46:42,566 --> 01:46:44,443
GREENFIELD: I couldn't begin to tell you.
1661
01:46:44,486 --> 01:46:47,046
HANSEN: He's one of the world's
leading intellectuals.
1662
01:46:47,086 --> 01:46:48,599
GREENFIELD: I have no idea.
1663
01:46:48,646 --> 01:46:50,523
I mean, I can make some guesses.
1664
01:46:50,566 --> 01:46:53,126
He may be
one of the leading intellectuals who...
1665
01:46:54,686 --> 01:46:56,199
...can't talk on television.
1666
01:46:56,246 --> 01:46:59,044
You know,
that's a standard that's very important. To us.
1667
01:46:59,086 --> 01:47:01,077
If you've got a 22-minute show,
1668
01:47:01,126 --> 01:47:03,401
and a guy takes five minutes to warm up...
1669
01:47:03,446 --> 01:47:05,596
Now, I don't know
whether Chomsky does or not.
1670
01:47:05,646 --> 01:47:07,125
...he's out.
1671
01:47:07,166 --> 01:47:11,000
One of the reasons
why Nightline has the usual suspects is,
1672
01:47:11,046 --> 01:47:13,082
one thing you have to do
when you book a show
1673
01:47:13,126 --> 01:47:16,323
is know that the person can make the point
within the framework of TV.
1674
01:47:16,366 --> 01:47:18,675
If people don't like that,
they should understand
1675
01:47:18,726 --> 01:47:21,843
it is as sensible to book somebody
who takes eight minutes to answer
1676
01:47:21,886 --> 01:47:24,275
as it is to book somebody
who doesn't speak English.
1677
01:47:24,326 --> 01:47:27,238
In the normal given flow,
that's another culture-bound thing.
1678
01:47:27,286 --> 01:47:29,880
We've got to have English speakers
and concision.
1679
01:47:29,926 --> 01:47:32,998
So Greenfield or whatever his name is
hit the nail on the head.
1680
01:47:33,046 --> 01:47:35,037
The US media are alone
1681
01:47:35,086 --> 01:47:38,635
in that you must meet the condition of concision.
1682
01:47:38,686 --> 01:47:41,359
You've got to say things
between two commercials
1683
01:47:41,406 --> 01:47:43,681
or in 600 words.
1684
01:47:43,726 --> 01:47:45,444
And that's a very important fact.
1685
01:47:45,486 --> 01:47:47,920
Because the beauty of concision,
1686
01:47:47,966 --> 01:47:50,924
you know, saying a couple of sentences
between two commercials...
1687
01:47:50,966 --> 01:47:54,515
The beauty of that is
that you can only repeat conventional thoughts.
1688
01:47:54,566 --> 01:47:56,875
GREENFIELD: I was reading Chomsky
20 years ago.
1689
01:47:56,926 --> 01:48:00,839
Didn't he co-author a book called Engineering
Consent or Manufacturing Consent?
1690
01:48:00,886 --> 01:48:03,844
I mean, some of that stuff, to me,
looks like it's from Neptune.
1691
01:48:03,886 --> 01:48:08,801
This is the first time the Neptune system
has been seen clearly by human eyes.
1692
01:48:08,846 --> 01:48:11,599
These pictures,
taken only hours ago by Voyager-2,
1693
01:48:11,646 --> 01:48:13,284
are its latest contribution.
1694
01:48:13,326 --> 01:48:17,797
GREENFIELD: You know, he's perfectly entitled
to say I'm seeing it through a prism, too.
1695
01:48:17,846 --> 01:48:22,920
But my view of his notions about the limits
of debate in this country is absolutely wacko.
1696
01:48:23,686 --> 01:48:27,315
Suppose I get up on Nightline, say.
And I'm given whatever it is, two minutes.
1697
01:48:27,366 --> 01:48:31,359
And I say Gaddafi is a terrorist,
Khomeini is a murderer, you know, etc, etc.
1698
01:48:31,406 --> 01:48:35,638
The Russians, you know, invaded Afghanistan.
All this sort of stuff.
1699
01:48:35,686 --> 01:48:38,200
I don't need any evidence. Everybody just nods.
1700
01:48:38,246 --> 01:48:42,876
On the other hand, suppose you say something
that just isn't regurgitating conventional pieties.
1701
01:48:42,926 --> 01:48:48,159
Suppose you say something that's the least bit
unexpected or controversial. You say:
1702
01:48:48,206 --> 01:48:51,039
The biggest international terror operations
that are known
1703
01:48:51,086 --> 01:48:52,997
are the ones that are run out of Washington.
1704
01:48:53,046 --> 01:48:54,365
Or suppose you say:
1705
01:48:54,406 --> 01:48:57,796
What happened in the 1980s is,
the US government was driven underground.
1706
01:48:57,846 --> 01:49:01,680
Suppose I say the United States is invading
South Vietnam, as it was?
1707
01:49:01,726 --> 01:49:06,038
The best political leaders
are the ones who are lazy and corrupt.
1708
01:49:06,086 --> 01:49:09,761
If the Nuremberg laws were applied,
1709
01:49:09,806 --> 01:49:14,038
then every post-War American President
would have been hanged.
1710
01:49:14,086 --> 01:49:18,204
The Bible is probably the most genocidal book
in our total canon.
1711
01:49:18,246 --> 01:49:21,204
Education is a system of imposed ignorance.
1712
01:49:21,246 --> 01:49:25,637
There's no more morality in world affairs
than there was in the time of Genghis Khan.
1713
01:49:25,686 --> 01:49:29,838
There are just different... You know, there are
just different factors to be concerned with.
1714
01:49:29,886 --> 01:49:31,285
Noam Chomsky, thank you.
1715
01:49:31,326 --> 01:49:35,763
Well, you know, people will quite reasonably
expect to know what you mean.
1716
01:49:35,806 --> 01:49:38,684
"Why did you say that?
I've never heard that before.
1717
01:49:38,726 --> 01:49:42,241
If you said that, you'd better have a reason,
better have some evidence.
1718
01:49:42,286 --> 01:49:46,325
In fact, you'd better have a lot of evidence
because that's a pretty startling comment".
1719
01:49:46,366 --> 01:49:49,199
You can't give evidence
if you're stuck with concision.
1720
01:49:49,246 --> 01:49:52,875
That's the genius of this structural constraint.
1721
01:49:52,926 --> 01:49:57,238
And in my view, if people like, say, Nightline,
MacNeil, Lehrer and so on were smarter,
1722
01:49:57,286 --> 01:49:59,004
if they were better propagandists,
1723
01:49:59,046 --> 01:50:02,243
they would let dissidents on,
let them on more, in fact.
1724
01:50:02,286 --> 01:50:05,358
The reason is that they would sound like
they were from Neptune.
1725
01:50:05,406 --> 01:50:08,239
PRESENTER: Then our conversation
on the Middle East crisis
1726
01:50:08,286 --> 01:50:11,483
with the activist, writer and professor,
Noam Chomsky.
1727
01:50:11,526 --> 01:50:14,962
Again, there has been an offer on the table
which we rejected,
1728
01:50:15,006 --> 01:50:16,758
an Iraqi offer of last April...
1729
01:50:16,806 --> 01:50:18,205
MACNEIL: OK, I have to...
1730
01:50:18,246 --> 01:50:21,522
...to eliminate their chemical
and other unconventional arsenals
1731
01:50:21,566 --> 01:50:23,921
if Israel were to simultaneously do the same.
1732
01:50:23,966 --> 01:50:26,764
- We have to end it there.
- That should be pursued as well.
1733
01:50:26,806 --> 01:50:32,517
Sorry to interrupt. I have to end it. That's the
end of our time. Professor Chomsky, thanks.
1734
01:50:32,566 --> 01:50:37,401
AT&T has supported
the MacNeil/Lehrer News Hour since 1983
1735
01:50:37,446 --> 01:50:40,518
because quality information
and quality communication
1736
01:50:40,566 --> 01:50:42,557
is our idea of a good connection.
1737
01:50:42,606 --> 01:50:45,404
AT&T - the right choice.
1738
01:50:45,446 --> 01:50:48,199
- Thank you.
- Could you just sit there for half a second?
1739
01:50:48,246 --> 01:50:52,000
It's just for a two-shot, that's all.
Then we can do anything else with that. OK.
1740
01:50:52,046 --> 01:50:55,083
Yeah, what about the mic? Is that a problem?
1741
01:50:55,126 --> 01:50:57,082
OK, right.
1742
01:50:57,126 --> 01:51:00,914
The idea of this one is it's just a shot
where I'm seen talking to you.
1743
01:51:00,966 --> 01:51:05,721
I'll ask you, though, not to speak to me or move
your lips, so I can be seen to ask a question.
1744
01:51:05,766 --> 01:51:09,645
The reason for the shot is simply this.
OK, just don't talk to me and I'll keep going.
1745
01:51:09,686 --> 01:51:13,804
The reason for the shot - I'll explain it
because I find that's the easiest way to do it -
1746
01:51:13,846 --> 01:51:16,201
is I need a shot where you're sitting and seeing
1747
01:51:16,246 --> 01:51:18,362
and listening while I'm asking you a question.
1748
01:51:18,406 --> 01:51:22,160
We can use the shot to introduce you, explain
who you are, where you fit into my piece.
1749
01:51:22,206 --> 01:51:26,245
But if you don't speak to me, I can also use...
Got it? OK, thanks for your time.
1750
01:51:26,286 --> 01:51:29,881
If there is a narrower range of opinion
in the United States
1751
01:51:29,926 --> 01:51:34,044
and it is harder to express
a variety of different opinions,
1752
01:51:34,086 --> 01:51:35,804
why do you live in the US?
1753
01:51:35,846 --> 01:51:38,519
Well, first of all, it's my country,
1754
01:51:38,566 --> 01:51:41,034
and secondly, it's in many ways -
as I said before -
1755
01:51:41,086 --> 01:51:42,804
it's the freest country in the world.
1756
01:51:42,846 --> 01:51:46,885
I think there's more possibilities for change here
than in any other country I know.
1757
01:51:46,926 --> 01:51:48,837
But again, comparatively speaking,
1758
01:51:48,886 --> 01:51:51,958
it's the country
where the state is probably most restrictive.
1759
01:51:52,006 --> 01:51:55,601
Isn't that what you should look at comparatively
rather than in absolute terms?
1760
01:51:55,646 --> 01:51:57,318
You don't give that impression.
1761
01:51:57,366 --> 01:52:00,244
Maybe I don't give the impression.
I say it oten enough.
1762
01:52:00,286 --> 01:52:02,242
What I've said over and over again,
1763
01:52:02,286 --> 01:52:05,005
I've said it tonight, I've written it a million times,
1764
01:52:05,046 --> 01:52:07,321
is that the United States is a very free society.
1765
01:52:07,366 --> 01:52:09,118
It's also a very rich society.
1766
01:52:09,166 --> 01:52:12,920
Of course, the United States is a scandal
from the point of view of its wealth.
1767
01:52:12,966 --> 01:52:16,117
Given the natural advantages
that the United States has,
1768
01:52:16,166 --> 01:52:20,079
in terms of resources
and lack of enemies and so on,
1769
01:52:20,126 --> 01:52:23,641
the United States should have a level
of health and welfare and so on
1770
01:52:23,686 --> 01:52:27,474
that's, you know, on an order of magnitude
beyond anybody else in the world.
1771
01:52:27,526 --> 01:52:32,998
We don't. The United States is last among
20 industrialised societies in infant mortality.
1772
01:52:33,046 --> 01:52:35,765
That's a scandal of American capitalism.
1773
01:52:35,806 --> 01:52:37,922
And it ends up being a very free society
1774
01:52:37,966 --> 01:52:40,799
which does a lot of rotten things
in the world, OK?
1775
01:52:40,846 --> 01:52:42,564
There's no contradiction there.
1776
01:52:42,606 --> 01:52:46,724
Greece was a free society
by the standards of Athens, you know.
1777
01:52:46,766 --> 01:52:49,758
It was also a vicious society
as regards its imperial behaviour.
1778
01:52:49,806 --> 01:52:53,116
There's virtually no correlation - maybe none -
1779
01:52:53,166 --> 01:52:57,125
between the internal freedom of a society
and its external behaviour.
1780
01:52:57,166 --> 01:53:00,203
You start your line of discussion
1781
01:53:00,246 --> 01:53:02,680
at a moment that is historically useful for you.
1782
01:53:02,726 --> 01:53:06,241
- But you picked the beginning.
- The grand fact of the post-war world
1783
01:53:06,286 --> 01:53:09,278
is that the Communist imperialists,
1784
01:53:09,326 --> 01:53:12,796
by the use of terrorism,
by the use of deprivation of freedom,
1785
01:53:12,846 --> 01:53:15,838
have contributed to the continuing bloodshed.
1786
01:53:15,886 --> 01:53:18,275
The sad thing about it is,
not only the bloodshed,
1787
01:53:18,326 --> 01:53:22,638
but the fact that they seem to dispossess you
of the power of rational observation.
1788
01:53:22,686 --> 01:53:24,642
I think that's about five per cent true.
1789
01:53:24,686 --> 01:53:27,200
Or maybe ten per cent true. It certainly is true...
1790
01:53:27,246 --> 01:53:29,999
- Why do you give that?
- May I complete a sentence?
1791
01:53:30,046 --> 01:53:34,358
It's perfectly true that there were areas
of the world, in particular, Eastern Europe,
1792
01:53:34,406 --> 01:53:36,715
where Stalinist imperialism...
1793
01:53:37,966 --> 01:53:41,515
very brutally took control
and still maintains control.
1794
01:53:41,566 --> 01:53:45,479
But there are also very vast areas of the world
where we were doing the same thing.
1795
01:53:45,526 --> 01:53:48,120
And there's quite an interplay in the Cold War.
1796
01:53:48,166 --> 01:53:51,636
What you just described is, I believe,
a mythology about the Cold War.
1797
01:53:51,686 --> 01:53:55,964
It may have been tenable ten years ago but
it's inconsistent with contemporary scholarship.
1798
01:53:56,006 --> 01:53:57,405
Ask a Czech.
1799
01:53:57,446 --> 01:53:59,437
Ask a Guatemalan, ask a Dominican.
1800
01:54:00,366 --> 01:54:05,486
Ask the president of the Dominican Republic,
ask a person from South Vietnam, ask a Thai.
1801
01:54:05,526 --> 01:54:09,519
Obviously, if you can't distinguish between
the nature of our venture in Guatemala
1802
01:54:09,566 --> 01:54:12,717
and the nature of the Soviet Union's in Prague,
we have difficulties.
1803
01:54:12,766 --> 01:54:13,994
(Doorbell sound)
1804
01:54:16,566 --> 01:54:21,162
Er... now, what about making the media
more responsive and democratic?
1805
01:54:21,206 --> 01:54:23,401
Well, there are very narrow limits for that.
1806
01:54:23,446 --> 01:54:27,075
It's kind of like asking, "How do we make
corporations more democratic?"
1807
01:54:27,126 --> 01:54:29,162
Well, the only way to do that is get rid of them.
1808
01:54:29,206 --> 01:54:31,879
I mean, if you have concentrated power...
1809
01:54:31,926 --> 01:54:34,486
I don't want to say you can do nothing.
1810
01:54:34,526 --> 01:54:38,280
Like the church can show up
at the stockholders' meeting
1811
01:54:38,326 --> 01:54:41,443
and start screaming
about not investing in South Africa.
1812
01:54:41,486 --> 01:54:45,115
And sometimes that has marginal effects.
I don't want to say it has no effect.
1813
01:54:45,166 --> 01:54:47,805
But you can't really affect the structure of power.
1814
01:54:47,846 --> 01:54:50,485
Because to do that would be a social revolution.
1815
01:54:50,526 --> 01:54:53,245
Unless you're ready for a social revolution,
1816
01:54:53,286 --> 01:54:55,322
that is, power is going to be somewhere else,
1817
01:54:55,366 --> 01:54:59,564
the media are going to have their present
structure and represent their present interests.
1818
01:54:59,606 --> 01:55:02,040
That's not to say
that one shouldn't try to do things.
1819
01:55:02,086 --> 01:55:04,919
It makes sense
to try to push the limits of a system.
1820
01:55:04,966 --> 01:55:09,039
It only takes one or two people
that think they have integrity as journalists
1821
01:55:09,086 --> 01:55:10,599
to give you some good press.
1822
01:55:10,646 --> 01:55:13,763
That's important. That goes back
to something that came up before.
1823
01:55:13,806 --> 01:55:18,118
There are contradictions.
You know, things are complex.
1824
01:55:18,166 --> 01:55:22,079
It's not monolithic. I mean, the mass media
themselves are complicated institutions
1825
01:55:22,126 --> 01:55:23,764
with internal contradictions.
1826
01:55:23,806 --> 01:55:27,481
So, on the one hand, there's the commitment
to indoctrination and control.
1827
01:55:27,526 --> 01:55:31,041
But on the other hand,
there's the sense of professional integrity.
1828
01:55:31,086 --> 01:55:33,600
REPORTER: She works alone,
as her own boss,
1829
01:55:33,646 --> 01:55:36,763
writing newspaper columns
and producing radio commentaries
1830
01:55:36,806 --> 01:55:39,400
for a hodgepodge of small clients
across the country.
1831
01:55:40,166 --> 01:55:42,760
This so-called leather-lunged Texan
1832
01:55:42,806 --> 01:55:46,082
has been firing questions at our chief executive
for almost 40 years.
1833
01:55:46,126 --> 01:55:48,515
Many a young man in this country
is disillusioned
1834
01:55:48,566 --> 01:55:50,158
by his government these days.
1835
01:55:50,206 --> 01:55:54,757
Well, this is a question which you very properly
bring to the attention of the nation.
1836
01:55:54,806 --> 01:55:57,240
It's not that we haven't held press conferences.
1837
01:55:57,286 --> 01:55:59,720
I was just waiting for Sarah to come back.
1838
01:55:59,766 --> 01:56:02,439
Mr President, that's very nice of you
and I appreciate it.
1839
01:56:02,486 --> 01:56:06,320
Sir, I want to call your attention to a real
problem we've got in this country today.
1840
01:56:06,366 --> 01:56:10,917
REPORTER: The unique, terrifying McClendon
questions reflect her desire to get information.
1841
01:56:10,966 --> 01:56:13,799
MCCLENDON:
I want to ask your new man what he feels...
1842
01:56:13,846 --> 01:56:15,837
- Here.
(Laughter)
1843
01:56:17,086 --> 01:56:19,520
REPORTER:
With enough know-how and persistence,
1844
01:56:19,566 --> 01:56:21,557
she usually gets her man.
1845
01:56:21,606 --> 01:56:24,837
MCCLENDON: What would you do
if you were in a situation
1846
01:56:24,886 --> 01:56:27,400
where you were trying to be an honest reporter
1847
01:56:27,446 --> 01:56:31,439
and you were worried sick about your country
and you saw how sick it was,
1848
01:56:31,486 --> 01:56:36,002
and you were facing this weak White House
and a weak Congress,
1849
01:56:36,046 --> 01:56:38,196
as a reporter, what would you do?
1850
01:56:38,246 --> 01:56:41,124
CHOMSKY: I think there are a lot of reporters
who do a good job.
1851
01:56:41,166 --> 01:56:44,044
I have a lot of friends in the press
who I think do a terrific job.
1852
01:56:44,086 --> 01:56:46,680
I know they are. They want to...
1853
01:56:46,726 --> 01:56:50,275
Well, first of all,
you have to understand what the system is.
1854
01:56:50,326 --> 01:56:54,035
And smart reporters do understand what it is.
1855
01:56:54,086 --> 01:56:56,998
You have to understand
what the pressures and commitments are,
1856
01:56:57,046 --> 01:56:59,719
what the barriers are
and what the openings are.
1857
01:56:59,766 --> 01:57:01,961
Right ater the Iran-Contra hearings,
1858
01:57:02,006 --> 01:57:06,602
a lot of good reporters understood, "Things are
going to be more open for a couple of months".
1859
01:57:06,646 --> 01:57:10,116
So they rammed through stories
they couldn't even talk about before.
1860
01:57:10,166 --> 01:57:12,555
- And ater Watergate.
- The same ater Watergate.
1861
01:57:12,606 --> 01:57:14,562
Then it closes up again.
1862
01:57:14,606 --> 01:57:17,837
Most people, I imagine,
simply internalise the values.
1863
01:57:17,886 --> 01:57:20,764
That's the easiest way
and the most successful way.
1864
01:57:20,806 --> 01:57:24,594
You just internalise the values and then
you regard yourself, in a way correctly,
1865
01:57:24,646 --> 01:57:26,159
as acting perfectly freely.
1866
01:57:26,206 --> 01:57:28,436
All right, let's get to the White House now
1867
01:57:28,486 --> 01:57:31,637
where I think veteran correspondent
Frank Sesno can tell us
1868
01:57:31,686 --> 01:57:33,802
a little bit about self-censorship.
1869
01:57:33,846 --> 01:57:37,236
That internal guidance system's
always going on, isn't it?
1870
01:57:37,286 --> 01:57:40,676
- Is there any formal censorship there?
- There's no self-censorship.
1871
01:57:40,726 --> 01:57:42,921
If somebody tells me something, I'll pass it on,
1872
01:57:42,966 --> 01:57:45,560
unless there's a particular,
compelling reason not to.
1873
01:57:45,606 --> 01:57:48,245
I can't deny that I'd like to have access
to the Oval Office
1874
01:57:48,286 --> 01:57:50,800
and all the same maps
the President's looking at.
1875
01:57:50,846 --> 01:57:54,202
But that's not possible, it's not realistic,
and probably not desirable.
1876
01:58:01,006 --> 01:58:02,997
Hello. How are you?
1877
01:58:03,046 --> 01:58:04,684
Go and sit down there, please.
1878
01:58:05,686 --> 01:58:07,642
Welcome to Holland.
1879
01:58:07,686 --> 01:58:10,200
I'll introduce you first with a few lines.
1880
01:58:10,246 --> 01:58:13,716
Professor Chomsky, Noam Chomsky.
1881
01:58:21,606 --> 01:58:24,439
Chomsky has been called
the Einstein of modern linguistics.
1882
01:58:24,486 --> 01:58:28,559
The New York Times has said he's arguably
the most important intellectual alive today.
1883
01:58:28,606 --> 01:58:31,040
But his presence here has sparked a protest.
1884
01:58:31,086 --> 01:58:33,475
This book has poisoned the world.
1885
01:58:33,526 --> 01:58:34,925
All lies are in there.
1886
01:58:34,966 --> 01:58:38,197
As the Vietnamese people,
we come here to burn the book.
1887
01:58:41,366 --> 01:58:45,757
He said that in Vietnam
there is no violation of human rights
1888
01:58:45,806 --> 01:58:48,320
and no crime in Cambodia - it's wrong.
1889
01:58:48,366 --> 01:58:50,675
Chomsky using his profession,
1890
01:58:50,726 --> 01:58:53,035
he using that to poison the world.
1891
01:58:53,086 --> 01:58:55,316
And we come here to protest that.
1892
01:58:55,366 --> 01:58:58,563
I don't mind the denunciations, frankly.
I mind the lies.
1893
01:58:58,606 --> 01:59:02,042
Intellectuals are very good at lying.
They're professionals at it.
1894
01:59:02,086 --> 01:59:04,042
Vilification is a wonderful technique.
1895
01:59:04,086 --> 01:59:05,565
There's no way of responding.
1896
01:59:05,606 --> 01:59:09,884
If somebody calls you an anti-Semite,
what can you say? "I'm not an anti-Semite"?
1897
01:59:09,926 --> 01:59:12,599
If somebody says,
"You're a racist, you're a Nazi",
1898
01:59:12,646 --> 01:59:14,204
you always lose.
1899
01:59:14,246 --> 01:59:16,601
I mean, the person who throws the mud
always wins,
1900
01:59:16,646 --> 01:59:18,762
because there's no way of responding.
1901
01:59:18,806 --> 01:59:21,115
Professor Chomsky seems to believe
1902
01:59:21,166 --> 01:59:26,798
that the people he criticises fall
into one of two classes - liars or dupes.
1903
01:59:28,206 --> 01:59:32,040
Consider what happens when I discuss
the case of Robert Faurisson.
1904
01:59:32,086 --> 01:59:34,646
Let me recall the facts.
1905
01:59:34,686 --> 01:59:38,645
- Let's not go into details.
- The details happen to be important.
1906
01:59:38,686 --> 01:59:40,802
Yes, but I have only one question for you.
1907
01:59:40,846 --> 01:59:43,280
- Do the facts matter or don't they?
- Of course.
1908
01:59:43,326 --> 01:59:45,886
Well, let me tell you what the facts are.
1909
01:59:45,926 --> 01:59:46,995
(Heckling)
1910
01:59:47,046 --> 01:59:51,756
Faurisson says that the massacre of the Jews
in the Holocaust is a historic lie.
1911
01:59:51,806 --> 01:59:54,525
WOMAN: Can we have the next question?
SPEAKER: No.
1912
01:59:54,566 --> 01:59:57,285
No, this is an important one.
It has a lot to do with the topic.
1913
01:59:57,326 --> 01:59:58,645
WOMAN: Get off!
1914
01:59:58,686 --> 02:00:00,995
REYNOLDS:
Your views are very controversial.
1915
02:00:01,046 --> 02:00:04,004
Perhaps one of the things
that has been most controversial
1916
02:00:04,046 --> 02:00:08,244
and you've been most strongly criticised for
was your defence of a French intellectual
1917
02:00:08,286 --> 02:00:10,322
who was suspended from his university post
1918
02:00:10,366 --> 02:00:13,483
for contending that there were
no Nazi death camps in World War II.
1919
02:00:15,246 --> 02:00:17,840
FAURISSON: My name is Robert Faurisson.
1920
02:00:17,886 --> 02:00:21,845
I am 60.
I am a university professor in Lyons, France.
1921
02:00:21,886 --> 02:00:26,437
Behind me,
you may see the courthouse of Paris,
1922
02:00:26,486 --> 02:00:28,317
Le Palais de Justice.
1923
02:00:29,246 --> 02:00:30,759
In this place,
1924
02:00:30,806 --> 02:00:35,800
I was convicted many times
at the beginning of the '80s.
1925
02:00:36,726 --> 02:00:42,005
I was charged by nine associations,
1926
02:00:42,046 --> 02:00:44,116
mostly Jewish associations,
1927
02:00:44,166 --> 02:00:45,679
for...
1928
02:00:48,166 --> 02:00:50,157
...inciting hatred,
1929
02:00:50,206 --> 02:00:51,958
racial hatred,
1930
02:00:52,006 --> 02:00:53,997
for racial defamation,
1931
02:00:54,046 --> 02:00:58,722
for damage by falsifying history.
1932
02:00:58,766 --> 02:01:03,317
Professor Chomsky and a number
of other intellectuals signed a petition
1933
02:01:03,366 --> 02:01:08,440
in which Faurisson is called
"a respected professor of literature
1934
02:01:08,486 --> 02:01:12,684
who merely tried to make his findings public".
1935
02:01:13,566 --> 02:01:22,520
Perhaps we can start with just the story of
Robert Faurisson and your involvement.
1936
02:01:22,566 --> 02:01:26,844
More than 500 people signed...
1937
02:01:28,286 --> 02:01:30,038
Maybe 600.
1938
02:01:30,766 --> 02:01:34,395
Mostly... universitaires.
1939
02:01:34,446 --> 02:01:35,674
Scholars.
1940
02:01:35,726 --> 02:01:39,275
And what happened to the other 499 of them?
1941
02:01:39,326 --> 02:01:41,965
How come we only hear
about Chomsky's signature?
1942
02:01:42,006 --> 02:01:46,761
Well, I think it's because Chomsky has,
in himself, a kind of political power.
1943
02:01:50,166 --> 02:01:51,804
CHOMSKY: I signed a petition
1944
02:01:51,846 --> 02:01:54,724
calling on the tribunal to defend his civil rights.
1945
02:01:54,766 --> 02:01:58,964
At that point, the French press,
which has no conception of freedom of speech,
1946
02:01:59,006 --> 02:02:02,635
concluded that
since I had called for his civil rights,
1947
02:02:02,686 --> 02:02:04,517
I was therefore defending his thesis.
1948
02:02:04,566 --> 02:02:06,761
Faurisson then published a book
1949
02:02:06,806 --> 02:02:11,641
in which he tried to prove
that the Nazi gas chambers never existed.
1950
02:02:11,686 --> 02:02:16,237
What we deny is that there was
1951
02:02:16,286 --> 02:02:18,846
an extermination programme
1952
02:02:18,886 --> 02:02:21,320
and an extermination, actually.
1953
02:02:21,366 --> 02:02:24,722
Especially in gas chambers or gas vans.
1954
02:02:24,766 --> 02:02:29,396
BOLKESTEIN: The book contains a preface
written by Professor Chomsky
1955
02:02:29,446 --> 02:02:31,562
in which he calls Faurisson
1956
02:02:31,606 --> 02:02:35,121
"a relatively apolitical sort of liberal".
1957
02:02:36,526 --> 02:02:40,883
A Communist is a man, a Jew is a man,
a Nazi is a man.
1958
02:02:40,926 --> 02:02:42,325
I am a man.
1959
02:02:42,366 --> 02:02:44,163
Are you a Nazi?
1960
02:02:44,206 --> 02:02:46,117
I am not a Nazi.
1961
02:02:46,166 --> 02:02:48,634
How would you describe yourself politically?
1962
02:02:50,326 --> 02:02:51,554
Nothing.
1963
02:02:51,606 --> 02:02:55,519
- The preface that you wrote...
- No, that's not the preface that I wrote.
1964
02:02:55,566 --> 02:02:59,002
Because I never wrote a preface
and you know that I never wrote a preface.
1965
02:03:00,046 --> 02:03:03,197
He's referring to a statement of mine
on civil liberties
1966
02:03:03,246 --> 02:03:07,080
which was added to a book
in which Faurisson...
1967
02:03:07,126 --> 02:03:08,525
(Heckling)
- Excuse me.
1968
02:03:08,566 --> 02:03:11,638
You're a linguist
and the language you use has meaning!
1969
02:03:11,686 --> 02:03:15,076
And when you describe Faurisson
as an "apolitical liberal",
1970
02:03:15,126 --> 02:03:20,803
or as someone whose views can be dignified
by the words "findings" or "conclusions",
1971
02:03:20,846 --> 02:03:24,122
that is a judgment
and that is a favourable judgment of his views.
1972
02:03:24,166 --> 02:03:25,360
On the contrary.
1973
02:03:25,406 --> 02:03:29,081
- May I continue with the facts?
- You can continue with the facts for hours.
1974
02:03:29,126 --> 02:03:31,765
But there are a few facts that... Yeah, OK.
1975
02:03:31,806 --> 02:03:33,524
Let's get to the so-called preface.
1976
02:03:33,566 --> 02:03:37,400
I was then asked
by the person who organised the petition
1977
02:03:37,446 --> 02:03:39,960
to write a statement on freedom of speech.
1978
02:03:40,006 --> 02:03:42,884
Just banal comments about freedom of speech,
1979
02:03:42,926 --> 02:03:47,556
pointing out the difference between defending
a person's right to express his views
1980
02:03:47,606 --> 02:03:49,483
and defending the views expressed.
1981
02:03:49,526 --> 02:03:52,484
So I did that. I wrote a rather banal statement
1982
02:03:52,526 --> 02:03:55,438
called "Some Elementary Remarks
on Freedom of Expression".
1983
02:03:55,486 --> 02:03:57,716
And I told them, "Do what you like with it".
1984
02:03:57,766 --> 02:04:00,485
So Pierre produced a book
1985
02:04:00,526 --> 02:04:05,042
in which all the arguments of Faurisson
were to be put in front of the court.
1986
02:04:05,086 --> 02:04:08,158
And we thought it wise
1987
02:04:08,206 --> 02:04:11,198
to use the text of Noam Chomsky
1988
02:04:11,246 --> 02:04:14,204
as a kind of warning, a forward,
1989
02:04:14,246 --> 02:04:17,716
to say that it was
a matter of freedom of expression,
1990
02:04:17,766 --> 02:04:19,996
freedom of thought, freedom of research.
1991
02:04:20,046 --> 02:04:23,482
Why did you try at the last moment
to get it back from the book?
1992
02:04:23,526 --> 02:04:25,198
That's the one thing I'm sorry about.
1993
02:04:25,246 --> 02:04:27,714
- But that's the real important thing.
- No, it's not.
1994
02:04:27,766 --> 02:04:29,404
You mean that I tried to retract it?
1995
02:04:29,446 --> 02:04:33,041
- With that, you said it was wrong of you to do it.
- No. Take a look at what I did.
1996
02:04:33,086 --> 02:04:36,999
I wrote a letter, which was then published,
in which I said,
1997
02:04:37,046 --> 02:04:38,638
"Look, things have reached a point
1998
02:04:38,686 --> 02:04:41,200
where the French intellectual community
1999
02:04:41,246 --> 02:04:44,238
simply is incapable of understanding the issues.
2000
02:04:44,286 --> 02:04:47,596
At this point,
it's just going to confuse matters even more
2001
02:04:47,646 --> 02:04:52,925
if my comments on freedom of speech are
attached to a book which I didn't know existed.
2002
02:04:52,966 --> 02:04:55,605
So, just to clarify things,
you'd better separate them".
2003
02:04:55,646 --> 02:04:58,080
Now, in retrospect, I shouldn't have done that.
2004
02:04:58,126 --> 02:05:01,516
I should have just said, "Fine. Let it appear,
because it ought to appear".
2005
02:05:01,566 --> 02:05:04,160
But apart from that,
2006
02:05:04,206 --> 02:05:06,595
I regard this as not only trivial,
2007
02:05:06,646 --> 02:05:10,355
but as compared with other positions I've taken
on freedom of speech, invisible.
2008
02:05:10,406 --> 02:05:14,194
I do not think the state ought to have the right
to determine historical truth
2009
02:05:14,246 --> 02:05:16,157
and to punish people who deviate from it.
2010
02:05:16,206 --> 02:05:19,118
I'm not willing to give the state that right,
even if they...
2011
02:05:19,166 --> 02:05:22,124
- Are you denying the gas chambers existed?
- Of course not.
2012
02:05:22,166 --> 02:05:24,475
I'm saying, if you believe in freedom of speech,
2013
02:05:24,526 --> 02:05:27,165
you believe in freedom of speech
for views you don't like.
2014
02:05:27,206 --> 02:05:31,438
Goebbels was in favour of freedom of speech
for views he liked, right? So was Stalin.
2015
02:05:31,486 --> 02:05:33,363
If you're in favour of freedom of speech,
2016
02:05:33,406 --> 02:05:37,365
that means you're in favour of freedom
of speech precisely for views you despise.
2017
02:05:37,406 --> 02:05:39,840
Otherwise you're not in favour
of freedom of speech.
2018
02:05:39,886 --> 02:05:43,959
There's two positions you can have on freedom
of speech. You can decide which you want.
2019
02:05:44,006 --> 02:05:47,840
With regard to my defence
of the utterly offensive,
2020
02:05:47,886 --> 02:05:50,605
the people who express utterly offensive views,
2021
02:05:50,646 --> 02:05:53,319
I haven't the slightest doubt
that every commissar says,
2022
02:05:53,366 --> 02:05:55,243
"You're defending that person's views".
2023
02:05:55,286 --> 02:05:57,720
No, I'm not.
I'm defending his right to express them.
2024
02:05:57,766 --> 02:05:59,324
The difference is crucial.
2025
02:05:59,366 --> 02:06:03,962
And the difference has been understood
outside of fascist circles since the 18th century.
2026
02:06:04,006 --> 02:06:08,124
Is there anything like objectivity,
scientific objectivity, reality?
2027
02:06:08,166 --> 02:06:11,841
- As a scientist, where do you stand on this?
- I'm not saying I defend the views.
2028
02:06:11,886 --> 02:06:15,196
If somebody publishes a scientific article
which I disagree with,
2029
02:06:15,246 --> 02:06:18,477
I do not say
the state ought to put him in jail, right?
2030
02:06:18,526 --> 02:06:21,324
- But you don't have to support him...
- I don't support him.
2031
02:06:21,366 --> 02:06:25,200
...and say, "I support him just for the sake
of anybody saying what they want".
2032
02:06:25,246 --> 02:06:27,237
Suppose this guy is taken to court
2033
02:06:27,286 --> 02:06:29,561
and charged with falsification?
2034
02:06:29,606 --> 02:06:32,120
- Then I'll defend him.
- But he wasn't taken to court.
2035
02:06:32,166 --> 02:06:35,203
- Oh, you're wrong.
- But when did you write the support?
2036
02:06:35,246 --> 02:06:36,998
CHOMSKY: When he was brought to court.
2037
02:06:37,046 --> 02:06:39,082
And, in fact, the only support that I gave him
2038
02:06:39,126 --> 02:06:42,243
was to say he has a right
of freedom of speech, period.
2039
02:06:42,286 --> 02:06:45,881
OLMERT: There is no doubt in my mind
that the example I gave about the story,
2040
02:06:45,926 --> 02:06:48,918
that the Holocaust did not exist,
is very, very typical.
2041
02:06:48,966 --> 02:06:51,241
I'll give you another example of this.
2042
02:06:51,286 --> 02:06:55,040
How much of the American press believes
that Faurisson has anything to say?
2043
02:06:55,086 --> 02:06:56,838
How much of the press in France...
2044
02:06:56,886 --> 02:07:00,481
What percentage would you say?
Is it higher than zero?
2045
02:07:00,526 --> 02:07:05,122
Is it higher than zero? Have you ever seen
anything in any newspaper or any journal
2046
02:07:05,166 --> 02:07:07,634
saying that this man
is anything other than a lunatic?
2047
02:07:07,686 --> 02:07:09,119
I'll try to answer.
2048
02:07:09,166 --> 02:07:11,964
- I just follow the case...
- That's a simple question.
2049
02:07:12,006 --> 02:07:14,122
I follow the case five or six years ago.
2050
02:07:14,166 --> 02:07:18,318
I happened to see
that Noam Chomsky was in for strong criticism
2051
02:07:18,366 --> 02:07:20,163
even from some of his supporters
2052
02:07:20,206 --> 02:07:25,564
for doing something which could be interpreted
only in terms of a campaign against Israel.
2053
02:07:25,606 --> 02:07:28,916
Going back years, I am absolutely certain
2054
02:07:28,966 --> 02:07:31,321
that I've taken far more extreme positions
2055
02:07:31,366 --> 02:07:34,597
on people who deny the Holocaust
than you have.
2056
02:07:34,646 --> 02:07:38,764
For example, you go back to my earliest articles
and you will find that I say that
2057
02:07:38,806 --> 02:07:42,242
even to enter into the arena of debate
2058
02:07:42,286 --> 02:07:45,881
on the question
of whether the Nazis carried out such atrocities
2059
02:07:45,926 --> 02:07:47,484
is already to lose one's humanity.
2060
02:07:47,526 --> 02:07:51,155
So I don't even think you ought to discuss
the issue, if you want my opinion.
2061
02:07:51,206 --> 02:07:53,515
But if anybody wants to refute Faurisson,
2062
02:07:53,566 --> 02:07:55,636
there's certainly no difficulty in doing so.
2063
02:08:10,526 --> 02:08:13,040
I'm not interested in...
2064
02:08:14,326 --> 02:08:16,078
...freedom of speech and all that.
2065
02:08:16,126 --> 02:08:18,959
I have to win. And that's the question.
2066
02:08:19,006 --> 02:08:20,917
And I shall win.
2067
02:08:20,966 --> 02:08:22,115
Cut.
2068
02:08:25,646 --> 02:08:27,637
(Train's hooter)
2069
02:08:46,686 --> 02:08:48,916
I'm just an ordinary mum
2070
02:08:48,966 --> 02:08:51,321
who just thinks in terms of...
2071
02:08:51,366 --> 02:08:54,358
I don't want to some day
be holding my grandchildren
2072
02:08:54,406 --> 02:08:56,442
and watching something horrible happen
2073
02:08:56,486 --> 02:08:58,363
and feel like I didn't do anything.
2074
02:08:58,406 --> 02:09:02,035
And I mean, it's obvious what you're doing.
2075
02:09:02,086 --> 02:09:04,759
My question is, on a practical level,
2076
02:09:04,806 --> 02:09:09,118
where do you see the most practical place
to put your energy?
2077
02:09:09,166 --> 02:09:12,681
Tonight, I feel I'm overwhelmed.
I feel like it's too big, it's too much,
2078
02:09:12,726 --> 02:09:14,876
to even make a dent in.
2079
02:09:16,126 --> 02:09:20,005
CHOMSKY: The way things change is because
lots of people are working all the time.
2080
02:09:20,046 --> 02:09:24,483
You know, they're working in their communities,
in their workplace or wherever they are.
2081
02:09:24,526 --> 02:09:28,405
And they're building up the basis
for popular movements
2082
02:09:28,446 --> 02:09:29,959
which are going to make changes.
2083
02:09:30,006 --> 02:09:32,964
That's the way
everything has ever happened in history.
2084
02:09:33,006 --> 02:09:34,917
Whether it was the end of slavery,
2085
02:09:34,966 --> 02:09:38,402
whether it was the democratic revolutions,
2086
02:09:38,446 --> 02:09:42,041
or anything you want, you name it,
that's the way it worked.
2087
02:09:42,086 --> 02:09:45,158
You get a very false picture of this
from the history books.
2088
02:09:45,206 --> 02:09:47,800
In the history books, there's a couple of leaders.
2089
02:09:47,846 --> 02:09:50,155
You know, George Washington,
2090
02:09:50,206 --> 02:09:52,037
or Martin Luther King or whatever.
2091
02:09:52,086 --> 02:09:54,554
And I don't want to say
those people are unimportant.
2092
02:09:54,606 --> 02:09:58,076
Martin Luther King was important,
but he was not the Civil Rights Movement.
2093
02:09:58,126 --> 02:10:01,402
Martin Luther King can appear
in the history books
2094
02:10:01,446 --> 02:10:04,483
cos lots of people
whose names you will never know
2095
02:10:04,526 --> 02:10:07,882
and whose names are all forgotten
and who may have been killed and so on,
2096
02:10:07,926 --> 02:10:09,917
were working down in the South.
2097
02:10:11,286 --> 02:10:15,484
When you have active... activists,
2098
02:10:15,526 --> 02:10:19,917
and people concerned and people devoting
themselves and dedicating themselves
2099
02:10:19,966 --> 02:10:21,843
to social change or issues or whatever,
2100
02:10:21,886 --> 02:10:24,764
then people like me can appear.
2101
02:10:24,806 --> 02:10:28,685
We can appear to be prominent. But that's only
cos somebody else is doing the work.
2102
02:10:28,726 --> 02:10:32,685
My work,
whether it's giving hundreds of talks a year
2103
02:10:32,726 --> 02:10:36,241
or spending 20 hours a week
writing letters or writing books,
2104
02:10:36,286 --> 02:10:40,564
is not directed to intellectuals and politicians.
2105
02:10:40,606 --> 02:10:43,962
It's directed to what are called
"ordinary people".
2106
02:10:44,006 --> 02:10:48,602
What I expect from them is, in fact,
exactly what they are.
2107
02:10:48,646 --> 02:10:51,683
That they should try to understand the world
2108
02:10:51,726 --> 02:10:54,160
and act in accordance
with their decent impulses.
2109
02:10:54,206 --> 02:10:56,959
And that they should try to improve the world.
2110
02:10:57,006 --> 02:10:59,804
Many are willing to do that.
But they have to understand.
2111
02:10:59,846 --> 02:11:01,723
As far as I can see, in these things,
2112
02:11:01,766 --> 02:11:06,920
I feel that I'm simply helping people develop
courses of intellectual self-defence.
2113
02:11:06,966 --> 02:11:08,957
What did you mean by that?
2114
02:11:09,006 --> 02:11:11,395
What would such a course be?
2115
02:11:11,446 --> 02:11:14,279
I don't mean go to school,
because you'll not get it there.
2116
02:11:15,766 --> 02:11:20,635
It means you have to develop
an independent mind and work on it.
2117
02:11:20,686 --> 02:11:22,438
That's extremely hard to do alone.
2118
02:11:23,366 --> 02:11:26,438
The beauty of our system is
it isolates everybody.
2119
02:11:26,486 --> 02:11:29,364
Each person is sitting alone in front of the tube.
2120
02:11:29,406 --> 02:11:33,445
It's very hard to have ideas or thoughts
under those circumstances.
2121
02:11:33,486 --> 02:11:35,477
You can't fight the world alone.
2122
02:11:35,526 --> 02:11:37,915
Some people can, but it's pretty rare.
2123
02:11:37,966 --> 02:11:39,957
The way to do it is through organisation.
2124
02:11:40,006 --> 02:11:42,474
So courses of intellectual self-defence
2125
02:11:42,526 --> 02:11:47,998
will have to be in the context
of political and other organisation.
2126
02:11:50,086 --> 02:11:54,364
And it makes sense, I think,
to look at what the institutions are trying to do
2127
02:11:54,406 --> 02:11:56,044
and to take that almost as a key.
2128
02:11:56,086 --> 02:11:58,759
What they're trying to do
is what we're trying to combat.
2129
02:11:58,806 --> 02:12:03,004
If they're trying to keep people
isolated and separate, and so on,
2130
02:12:03,046 --> 02:12:05,640
then we'll try and do the opposite,
bring them together.
2131
02:12:05,686 --> 02:12:10,885
So, in your local community,
you want to have sources of alternative action,
2132
02:12:10,926 --> 02:12:14,316
people with parallel concerns,
maybe differently focused,
2133
02:12:14,366 --> 02:12:17,164
but, at the core, sort of similar values
2134
02:12:17,206 --> 02:12:21,882
and a similar interest in helping people defend
themselves against external power
2135
02:12:21,926 --> 02:12:23,723
and taking control of their lives
2136
02:12:23,766 --> 02:12:26,075
and reaching out your hand
to people who need it.
2137
02:12:26,126 --> 02:12:28,003
That's a common array of concerns.
2138
02:12:28,046 --> 02:12:30,002
You can learn about your own values
2139
02:12:30,046 --> 02:12:33,675
and you can figure out how to defend yourself
in conjunction with others.
2140
02:12:33,726 --> 02:12:38,925
Erm... are there one or two publications
that I, as an average person, a biologist,
2141
02:12:38,966 --> 02:12:43,039
can read to bypass this filter of our press?
2142
02:12:43,086 --> 02:12:46,761
Now, if you ask, "What media can I turn to
to get the right answers?"
2143
02:12:46,806 --> 02:12:48,922
First of all, I wouldn't tell you that,
2144
02:12:48,966 --> 02:12:50,843
because I don't think there's an answer.
2145
02:12:50,886 --> 02:12:53,923
The right answers are what you decide
are the right answers.
2146
02:12:53,966 --> 02:12:56,196
Maybe everything I'm telling you is wrong.
2147
02:12:56,246 --> 02:12:58,635
It could perfectly well be. I'm not God.
2148
02:12:58,686 --> 02:13:02,679
But that's something for you to figure out.
I can tell you what I think happens to be right.
2149
02:13:02,726 --> 02:13:05,604
But there isn't any reason
why you should pay any attention to it.
2150
02:13:05,926 --> 02:13:10,556
What impact do you feel alternative media is
currently having or could potentially have?
2151
02:13:10,606 --> 02:13:13,518
I'm actually a little more interested
in its potential.
2152
02:13:13,566 --> 02:13:15,284
And just to define my terms,
2153
02:13:15,326 --> 02:13:20,002
by alternative media, I'm referring to media
that are or could be citizen-controlled
2154
02:13:20,046 --> 02:13:22,241
as opposed to state or corporate-controlled.
2155
02:13:22,286 --> 02:13:24,754
That's what's kept people together.
2156
02:13:24,806 --> 02:13:27,843
To the extent that people are able
to do something constructive,
2157
02:13:27,886 --> 02:13:30,320
it's because they have some way of interacting.
2158
02:13:30,366 --> 02:13:32,834
I've always felt it would be a very positive thing
2159
02:13:32,886 --> 02:13:34,797
and it should be pushed as far as it can go.
2160
02:13:34,846 --> 02:13:37,041
I think it's going to have a very hard time.
2161
02:13:37,086 --> 02:13:42,001
There's just such a concentration
of resources and power that...
2162
02:13:43,246 --> 02:13:45,521
...alternative media,
2163
02:13:45,566 --> 02:13:49,718
while extremely important,
are going to have quite a battle.
2164
02:13:49,766 --> 02:13:53,042
It's true there are things
which are small successes.
2165
02:13:53,086 --> 02:13:57,125
But it's because people have just been willing
to put in an incredible effort.
2166
02:13:57,166 --> 02:13:59,043
Like, say, take Z Magazine.
2167
02:13:59,086 --> 02:14:01,964
I mean, that's a national magazine
2168
02:14:02,006 --> 02:14:04,440
which literally has a staff of two
2169
02:14:04,486 --> 02:14:06,397
and no resources.
2170
02:14:07,246 --> 02:14:10,795
Tell us a little about Z Magazine,
what it is and what makes it different.
2171
02:14:10,846 --> 02:14:12,404
Go ahead.
2172
02:14:12,446 --> 02:14:14,880
Go ahead? Thank you.
2173
02:14:14,926 --> 02:14:19,636
ALBERT: We just wanted to do a magazine
that would address all the sides of political life.
2174
02:14:19,686 --> 02:14:22,359
Economics, race, gender,
2175
02:14:22,406 --> 02:14:24,681
authority, political relations.
2176
02:14:24,726 --> 02:14:27,194
And we wanted to do it in a way
that would incorporate
2177
02:14:27,246 --> 02:14:30,602
attention to how to not only understand
what's going on,
2178
02:14:30,646 --> 02:14:32,876
but how to make things better, what to aim for,
2179
02:14:32,926 --> 02:14:37,522
and to provide, at the same time,
humour, culture.
2180
02:14:37,566 --> 02:14:42,276
A kind of magazine that people could relate to
and get a lot out of and participate in.
2181
02:14:42,326 --> 02:14:46,444
What we wanted to do, which we didn't think
was provided by the existing magazines,
2182
02:14:46,486 --> 02:14:49,876
was to give it a real activist slant.
2183
02:14:49,926 --> 02:14:55,364
So that it could be very useful
to the variety of movements in the country.
2184
02:14:55,406 --> 02:14:59,160
We just felt there wasn't a magazine
that reflected that, that inspired people,
2185
02:14:59,206 --> 02:15:02,960
and that gave people a strategy
and perhaps even a vision
2186
02:15:03,006 --> 02:15:04,962
of how things could be better.
2187
02:15:11,966 --> 02:15:14,605
CHOMSKY: South End Press
has sort of made it.
2188
02:15:14,646 --> 02:15:17,365
That is, they're surviving.
2189
02:15:17,406 --> 02:15:19,715
It's a small collective, again with no resources.
2190
02:15:19,766 --> 02:15:21,836
They've put out a lot of good books.
2191
02:15:21,886 --> 02:15:26,038
But for a South End book to get reviewed
is almost impossible.
2192
02:15:26,086 --> 02:15:28,725
Editorially and business-wise,
2193
02:15:28,766 --> 02:15:35,444
we make decisions based on a politics
that no corporate publisher can really advocate
2194
02:15:35,486 --> 02:15:38,364
because of their ties to corporate America.
2195
02:15:38,406 --> 02:15:43,878
We can solicit manuscripts based on
what we feel is the relevance for the movement.
2196
02:15:43,926 --> 02:15:46,042
And we can make our business decisions
2197
02:15:46,086 --> 02:15:49,556
based on whether we feel
people can afford our books,
2198
02:15:49,606 --> 02:15:53,394
whether we feel that
a book might not make that much money
2199
02:15:53,446 --> 02:15:55,004
but it needs to be out there,
2200
02:15:55,046 --> 02:15:57,435
and maybe there is 1,000 people
who would buy it.
2201
02:15:57,486 --> 02:16:01,798
And those are criteria
that we feel are very precious
2202
02:16:01,846 --> 02:16:03,916
in this day of corporate mergers.
2203
02:16:03,966 --> 02:16:10,519
And likewise, our structure about sharing work
and continuing our training process
2204
02:16:10,566 --> 02:16:12,443
as long as we're at the press.
2205
02:16:12,486 --> 02:16:15,284
There are losses there in terms of productivity,
2206
02:16:15,326 --> 02:16:17,237
but in terms of empowerment,
2207
02:16:17,286 --> 02:16:20,437
all of us are then able to say...
2208
02:16:21,206 --> 02:16:23,595
"My perspective is different from yours".
2209
02:16:23,646 --> 02:16:28,276
Then all of our intelligence gets used
in making those decisions,
2210
02:16:28,326 --> 02:16:31,557
and not just whoever happens
to have done it the longest,
2211
02:16:31,606 --> 02:16:35,201
whoever happens to have graduated
from the best schools
2212
02:16:35,246 --> 02:16:37,282
in order to be the best editor,
2213
02:16:37,326 --> 02:16:41,478
making all the decisions
and only using his or her intelligence.
2214
02:16:41,526 --> 02:16:44,199
Citizen-supported radio in the United States
2215
02:16:44,246 --> 02:16:47,682
has undergone a remarkable growth
in the last decade.
2216
02:16:47,726 --> 02:16:52,004
It's perhaps the fastest-growing
alternative media.
2217
02:16:52,046 --> 02:16:54,321
There are many reasons for this.
2218
02:16:54,366 --> 02:16:57,722
First and foremost
is that it's enormously economical.
2219
02:16:57,766 --> 02:17:02,999
It reaches communities that have not been
served by community radio before.
2220
02:17:03,966 --> 02:17:06,400
In Boulder,
we see with someone like Noam Chomsky,
2221
02:17:06,446 --> 02:17:09,756
who's been there, I believe,
three times in the last six years,
2222
02:17:09,806 --> 02:17:11,762
he has a tremendous audience.
2223
02:17:11,806 --> 02:17:14,161
And KGNU is partly responsible for that.
2224
02:17:14,206 --> 02:17:16,879
Because we play his tapes on a regular basis.
2225
02:17:16,926 --> 02:17:19,360
We play his lectures and his interviews.
2226
02:17:19,406 --> 02:17:22,921
So, when he does come to Boulder
and people hear what he has to say,
2227
02:17:22,966 --> 02:17:27,881
they're able to tune in, it's not something exotic
or esoteric he's talking about.
2228
02:17:27,926 --> 02:17:31,965
It's material that they're very familiar with.
He's noted this, incidentally.
2229
02:17:32,006 --> 02:17:34,998
CHOMSKY: If there's a listener-supported
radio station,
2230
02:17:35,046 --> 02:17:38,561
it means that people can get daily, every day,
2231
02:17:38,606 --> 02:17:40,995
a different way of looking at the world.
2232
02:17:41,046 --> 02:17:44,356
Not just what the corporate media
want you to see,
2233
02:17:44,406 --> 02:17:47,045
but a different picture,
a different understanding.
2234
02:17:47,086 --> 02:17:49,839
Not only can you hear it,
but you can participate in it.
2235
02:17:49,886 --> 02:17:51,604
You can add your own thoughts.
2236
02:17:51,646 --> 02:17:53,637
You can learn something, and so on.
2237
02:17:53,686 --> 02:17:57,679
Well, that's the way people become human.
2238
02:17:57,726 --> 02:18:03,483
That's the way you become human participants
in a social and political system.
2239
02:18:04,286 --> 02:18:06,925
Hello, I'm Ed Robinson
and this is non-corporate news.
2240
02:18:06,966 --> 02:18:10,356
What is non-corporate news
and why is it necessary?
2241
02:18:10,406 --> 02:18:13,637
I didn't want to just show another film
at a library or something.
2242
02:18:13,686 --> 02:18:17,395
I wanted to make my own statement.
I thought it'd be more fun to do.
2243
02:18:17,446 --> 02:18:19,676
Perhaps I'd get others involved in a project.
2244
02:18:19,726 --> 02:18:24,197
Besides showing a film,
we could make a film or a video.
2245
02:18:24,246 --> 02:18:30,242
The local cable station's hooked up to three
communities - Lynn, Swampscott and Salem.
2246
02:18:30,286 --> 02:18:32,083
So that's 30,000 people,
2247
02:18:32,126 --> 02:18:34,196
or 30,000 homes.
2248
02:18:34,246 --> 02:18:36,237
I'm not sure. But I'm sure...
2249
02:18:36,286 --> 02:18:40,677
a lot of people see it and it'll be the kind
of people who don't go out to see a film.
2250
02:18:40,726 --> 02:18:45,277
It'll go right into their houses.
So, if they're flipping through their channels,
2251
02:18:45,326 --> 02:18:48,921
they might be able to get
a completely new idea of the world.
2252
02:18:55,486 --> 02:18:58,523
CHOMSKY: So there's kind of networks
of co-operation developing.
2253
02:18:58,566 --> 02:19:00,557
I mean, like here, for example.
2254
02:19:00,606 --> 02:19:04,121
There's a collection of stuff
from a friend of mine in Los Angeles
2255
02:19:04,166 --> 02:19:08,682
who does careful monitoring
of the whole press in Los Angeles
2256
02:19:08,726 --> 02:19:10,921
and a lot of the British press, which he reads.
2257
02:19:10,966 --> 02:19:12,877
And he does selections.
2258
02:19:12,926 --> 02:19:17,522
So I don't have to read the movie reviews
and the local gossip and all this kind of stuff.
2259
02:19:17,566 --> 02:19:20,205
But I get the occasional nugget
that sneaks through
2260
02:19:20,246 --> 02:19:26,435
and that you find if you're carefully, intelligently
and critically reviewing a wide range of press.
2261
02:19:26,486 --> 02:19:29,796
There are a fair number of people who do this
and we exchange information.
2262
02:19:29,846 --> 02:19:31,564
We wrote this two-volume work.
2263
02:19:31,606 --> 02:19:34,279
We saw one another for a couple of weeks
2264
02:19:34,326 --> 02:19:36,078
when we were getting started.
2265
02:19:36,126 --> 02:19:40,005
But then we wrote two volumes,
essentially without seeing one another.
2266
02:19:40,046 --> 02:19:43,959
Just by phone, by mail,
2267
02:19:44,006 --> 02:19:46,201
and exchanging manuscripts.
2268
02:19:46,246 --> 02:19:50,603
But this takes a lot of communication by mail.
2269
02:19:50,646 --> 02:19:54,082
My Chomsky file is a couple of feet thick.
2270
02:19:54,126 --> 02:19:57,004
The end result is that
you do have access to resources
2271
02:19:57,046 --> 02:20:01,995
in a way which I doubt that
any national intelligence agency can duplicate,
2272
02:20:02,046 --> 02:20:03,365
let alone scholarship.
2273
02:20:03,406 --> 02:20:07,763
So there are ways of compensating
for the absence of resources.
2274
02:20:07,806 --> 02:20:09,444
People can do things.
2275
02:20:09,486 --> 02:20:13,240
For example,
I found out about the arms flow to Iran
2276
02:20:13,286 --> 02:20:15,277
by reading transcripts of the BBC
2277
02:20:15,326 --> 02:20:20,639
and by reading an interview somewhere
with an Israeli ambassador in one city
2278
02:20:20,686 --> 02:20:23,200
and reading something else in the Israeli press.
2279
02:20:23,246 --> 02:20:24,964
OK, the information is there.
2280
02:20:25,006 --> 02:20:27,042
But it's there to a fanatic.
2281
02:20:27,086 --> 02:20:31,637
You know, somebody who wants to spend
a substantial part of their time and energy
2282
02:20:31,686 --> 02:20:36,043
exploring it and comparing today's lies
with yesterday's leaks, and so on.
2283
02:20:36,086 --> 02:20:37,644
That's a research job.
2284
02:20:37,686 --> 02:20:42,441
And it just simply doesn't make any sense
to ask the general population
2285
02:20:42,486 --> 02:20:45,762
to dedicate themselves to this task
on every issue.
2286
02:20:46,806 --> 02:20:48,603
I'm not given to false modesty.
2287
02:20:48,646 --> 02:20:52,036
There are things that I can do.
I know that I can do them reasonably well,
2288
02:20:52,086 --> 02:20:53,804
including...
2289
02:20:55,406 --> 02:20:57,397
...analysis and, you know...
2290
02:20:59,086 --> 02:21:00,405
...study, research.
2291
02:21:00,446 --> 02:21:04,598
I know how to do that. I think I've a reasonable
understanding of the way the world works,
2292
02:21:04,646 --> 02:21:06,557
as much as anyone can.
2293
02:21:06,606 --> 02:21:08,722
And that turns out to be a very useful resource
2294
02:21:08,766 --> 02:21:12,554
for people who are doing active organising...
2295
02:21:14,486 --> 02:21:17,159
...trying to engage themselves
2296
02:21:17,206 --> 02:21:19,879
in a way which will make it
a little bit of a better world.
2297
02:21:19,926 --> 02:21:22,963
And if you can help in those things,
or participate in them,
2298
02:21:23,006 --> 02:21:24,997
well, that's rewarding.
2299
02:21:25,046 --> 02:21:27,765
I wonder if you can envision a time
2300
02:21:27,806 --> 02:21:33,199
when people like myself,
and again, the naïve people of this world
2301
02:21:33,246 --> 02:21:35,806
can again take pride in the United States?
2302
02:21:35,846 --> 02:21:39,361
And is that even a healthy wish now?
2303
02:21:39,406 --> 02:21:43,194
Because it's maybe this hunger
for pride in our country
2304
02:21:43,246 --> 02:21:45,362
that makes us more easily manipulated
2305
02:21:45,406 --> 02:21:47,124
by the powers that you talk about.
2306
02:21:47,166 --> 02:21:51,478
Er... I think you first of all have to ask
what you mean by your country.
2307
02:21:51,526 --> 02:21:54,723
Now, if you mean by "the country"
the government,
2308
02:21:54,766 --> 02:21:58,475
I don't think you can be proud of it
and I don't think you could ever be proud of it.
2309
02:21:58,526 --> 02:22:00,676
(Applause)
- Or be proud of any government.
2310
02:22:00,726 --> 02:22:02,284
It's not our government.
2311
02:22:02,326 --> 02:22:04,556
And you shouldn't be.
2312
02:22:04,606 --> 02:22:06,437
States are violent institutions.
2313
02:22:06,486 --> 02:22:10,195
The government of any country, including ours,
2314
02:22:10,246 --> 02:22:13,238
represents a domestic power structure
and it's usually violent.
2315
02:22:13,286 --> 02:22:17,598
States are violent to the extent
that they're powerful. That's roughly accurate.
2316
02:22:17,646 --> 02:22:20,558
You look at American history,
it's nothing to write home about.
2317
02:22:20,606 --> 02:22:25,316
Why are we here? We're here because some
ten million native Americans were wiped out.
2318
02:22:25,366 --> 02:22:26,924
That's not very pretty.
2319
02:22:27,726 --> 02:22:31,560
Until the 1960s,
it was still cowboys and Indians.
2320
02:22:31,606 --> 02:22:34,757
In the 1970s, for the first time, really,
2321
02:22:34,806 --> 02:22:38,685
it became possible, even for scholarship,
to try to deal with the facts as they were.
2322
02:22:38,726 --> 02:22:43,083
For example, to deal with the fact that
the Native American population was far higher
2323
02:22:43,126 --> 02:22:44,605
than had been claimed.
2324
02:22:44,646 --> 02:22:47,877
Millions higher, maybe as many as ten million
higher than was claimed.
2325
02:22:47,926 --> 02:22:49,882
That they had an advanced civilisation,
2326
02:22:49,926 --> 02:22:53,282
and that there was something akin to genocide
that took place.
2327
02:22:53,326 --> 02:22:56,682
Now, we went through 200 years of our history
without facing that fact.
2328
02:22:56,726 --> 02:22:58,682
One of the effects of the 1960s
2329
02:22:58,726 --> 02:23:03,083
is it's possible to at least begin
to come to think about the facts.
2330
02:23:03,126 --> 02:23:05,003
Well, that's an advance.
2331
02:23:05,046 --> 02:23:07,879
INTERVIEWER: Do you think
that this activism 20 years ago
2332
02:23:07,926 --> 02:23:10,918
has made a difference
in how our society operates now?
2333
02:23:10,966 --> 02:23:15,357
CHOMSKY: It has not changed the institutions
in the way they function.
2334
02:23:16,566 --> 02:23:19,603
But it has led
to very significant cultural changes.
2335
02:23:19,646 --> 02:23:21,762
Remember, these movements of the '60s
2336
02:23:21,806 --> 02:23:25,321
expanded in the '70s
and expanded further in the '80s.
2337
02:23:25,366 --> 02:23:28,756
They reached into other parts of the society
and different issues.
2338
02:23:28,806 --> 02:23:34,915
A lot of things that seemed outrageous
in the '60s are taken for granted today.
2339
02:23:34,966 --> 02:23:38,038
So, for example, take the feminist movement,
2340
02:23:38,086 --> 02:23:40,805
which barely began to exist in the '60s.
2341
02:23:40,846 --> 02:23:43,519
Now it's part of general consciousness
and awareness.
2342
02:23:43,566 --> 02:23:47,525
The ecological movements began in the '70s.
2343
02:23:47,566 --> 02:23:52,356
The Third World solidarity movements
were very limited in the '60s.
2344
02:23:52,406 --> 02:23:53,839
It was really Vietnam.
2345
02:23:53,886 --> 02:23:57,720
And in the '60s also,
it was a student movement, as you say.
2346
02:23:57,766 --> 02:24:01,520
Now it's not. Now it's mainstream America.
2347
02:24:03,726 --> 02:24:06,638
MO YERS: If there is more dissidence now
than you can remember,
2348
02:24:06,686 --> 02:24:10,964
why do you go on to write
that the people feel isolated?
2349
02:24:11,006 --> 02:24:14,794
Because I think
much of the general population recognises
2350
02:24:14,846 --> 02:24:21,081
that the organised institutions do not reflect
their concerns and interests and needs.
2351
02:24:21,126 --> 02:24:24,755
They do not feel that they participate
meaningfully in the political system.
2352
02:24:24,806 --> 02:24:29,322
They do not feel that the media are telling them
the truth or even reflect their concerns.
2353
02:24:30,446 --> 02:24:34,837
They go outside
of the organised institutions to act.
2354
02:24:34,886 --> 02:24:39,118
We see more of our elected leaders and know
less of what they do. This medium does that.
2355
02:24:39,166 --> 02:24:40,724
It's very striking.
2356
02:24:40,766 --> 02:24:43,803
The Presidential elections are
almost removed from the point
2357
02:24:43,846 --> 02:24:47,122
where the public takes them seriously
as involving a matter of choice.
2358
02:24:47,166 --> 02:24:49,919
What do you think about what goes on
in the White House?
2359
02:24:49,966 --> 02:24:51,638
It's kept too private, I think.
2360
02:24:51,686 --> 02:24:53,995
Yeah, they should come out
and talk to the people.
2361
02:24:54,046 --> 02:24:56,162
- Yeah.
- Who should talk to the people?
2362
02:24:56,206 --> 02:24:58,003
George Bush!
2363
02:24:58,046 --> 02:25:01,356
Well, it means that
the political system increasingly...
2364
02:25:01,406 --> 02:25:04,364
increasingly functions without public input.
2365
02:25:04,406 --> 02:25:06,715
It means, to an increasing extent,
2366
02:25:06,766 --> 02:25:10,202
not only do people not ratify decisions
presented to them,
2367
02:25:10,246 --> 02:25:12,601
but they don't take the trouble of ratifying them.
2368
02:25:12,646 --> 02:25:17,674
They assume that the decisions are going on
independently of what they do in the poll booth.
2369
02:25:17,726 --> 02:25:19,557
MO YERS: Ratification would be what?
2370
02:25:19,606 --> 02:25:24,202
CHOMSKY: Ratification would mean there are
two positions presented to me, the voter.
2371
02:25:24,246 --> 02:25:27,443
I go into the polling booth
and I push one or another button,
2372
02:25:27,486 --> 02:25:29,681
depending on which of those positions I want.
2373
02:25:29,726 --> 02:25:31,762
That's a very limited form of democracy.
2374
02:25:31,806 --> 02:25:36,561
Really meaningful democracy would mean that
I play a role in forming those decisions,
2375
02:25:36,606 --> 02:25:38,756
in creating those positions.
2376
02:25:38,806 --> 02:25:41,445
That would be real democracy.
We're very far from that.
2377
02:25:41,486 --> 02:25:44,398
We're even departing from a point
where there is ratification.
2378
02:25:44,446 --> 02:25:46,801
When you have stage-managed elections,
2379
02:25:46,846 --> 02:25:51,283
with the public relations industry determining
what words come out of people's mouth,
2380
02:25:51,326 --> 02:25:56,241
candidates deciding what to say on the basis of
tests that determine what the effect will be
2381
02:25:56,286 --> 02:25:58,038
across the population,
2382
02:25:58,086 --> 02:26:01,874
somehow people don't see how profoundly
contemptuous that is of democracy.
2383
02:26:06,006 --> 02:26:07,485
(Fanfare)
2384
02:26:07,526 --> 02:26:11,644
The solemn moment is near.
But first, the swearing-in of Dan Quayle.
2385
02:26:16,726 --> 02:26:19,524
Please move to your seats.
2386
02:26:19,566 --> 02:26:21,682
For the first time in this century,
2387
02:26:21,726 --> 02:26:25,799
for the first time in perhaps all history,
2388
02:26:25,846 --> 02:26:30,044
Man does not have to invent a system
by which to live.
2389
02:26:30,086 --> 02:26:35,160
We don't have to talk late into the night
about which form of government is better.
2390
02:26:35,206 --> 02:26:38,004
We don't have to wrest justice...
2391
02:26:38,886 --> 02:26:40,524
...from the kings.
2392
02:26:40,566 --> 02:26:43,922
We only have to summon it
from within ourselves.
2393
02:26:43,966 --> 02:26:48,244
This is a time when the future seems a door
you can walk right through
2394
02:26:48,286 --> 02:26:50,356
into a room called Tomorrow.
2395
02:26:50,406 --> 02:26:54,240
Great nations of the world
are moving toward democracy
2396
02:26:54,286 --> 02:26:56,117
through the door to freedom.
2397
02:26:56,166 --> 02:27:01,115
The people of the world agitate
for free expression and free thought
2398
02:27:01,166 --> 02:27:05,523
through the door to the moral
and intellectual satisfactions
2399
02:27:05,566 --> 02:27:08,205
that only liberty allows.
2400
02:27:09,446 --> 02:27:14,679
We know how to secure a more just
and prosperous life for men on Earth.
2401
02:27:14,726 --> 02:27:16,637
Through free markets,
2402
02:27:16,686 --> 02:27:19,154
free speech, free elections,
2403
02:27:19,206 --> 02:27:23,996
and the exercise of free will
unhampered by the state.
2404
02:27:24,926 --> 02:27:26,962
I've spoken of 1,000 points of light,
2405
02:27:27,006 --> 02:27:30,123
of all the community organisations
2406
02:27:30,166 --> 02:27:33,715
that are spread like stars throughout the nation
doing good.
2407
02:27:34,646 --> 02:27:38,275
To the world, too,
we offer new engagement
2408
02:27:38,326 --> 02:27:40,317
and a renewed vow.
2409
02:27:41,366 --> 02:27:44,961
- We will stay strong to protect the peace.
(Whir of helicopter)
2410
02:27:46,366 --> 02:27:48,084
The offered hand...
2411
02:27:49,246 --> 02:27:51,123
...is a reluctant fist.
2412
02:27:52,126 --> 02:27:55,277
America is never wholly herself
2413
02:27:55,326 --> 02:28:00,081
unless she is engaged in high moral principle.
2414
02:28:00,126 --> 02:28:03,038
We, as a people, have such a purpose today.
2415
02:28:04,086 --> 02:28:05,758
It is...
2416
02:28:05,806 --> 02:28:08,274
to make kinder the face of the nation
2417
02:28:08,326 --> 02:28:11,124
and gentler the face of the world.
2418
02:28:15,646 --> 02:28:17,841
Referring back to your earlier comment
2419
02:28:17,886 --> 02:28:21,003
about escaping from
or doing away with capitalism,
2420
02:28:21,046 --> 02:28:25,039
I was wondering what scheme,
workable scheme, you would put in its place.
2421
02:28:25,086 --> 02:28:26,963
Me?
2422
02:28:27,006 --> 02:28:29,315
- Well, what I would...
(Laughter)
2423
02:28:29,366 --> 02:28:33,678
What would you suggest to others who might be
in a position to set it up and get it going?
2424
02:28:33,726 --> 02:28:39,323
Well, I mean, I think that what used to be called,
centuries ago, wage slavery is intolerable.
2425
02:28:39,366 --> 02:28:43,279
I don't think people ought to be forced
to rent themselves in order to survive.
2426
02:28:43,326 --> 02:28:49,037
I think that the economic institutions
ought to be run democratically
2427
02:28:49,086 --> 02:28:52,965
by their participants, by the communities
in which they exist, and so on,
2428
02:28:53,006 --> 02:28:56,715
and I think basically
through various kinds of free association.
2429
02:28:59,726 --> 02:29:03,560
Historically, have there been
any sustained examples
2430
02:29:03,606 --> 02:29:05,881
on any substantial scale
2431
02:29:05,926 --> 02:29:10,204
of societies which approximated
to the anarchist ideal?
2432
02:29:11,086 --> 02:29:13,805
There are small societies,
2433
02:29:13,846 --> 02:29:15,438
small in number,
2434
02:29:15,486 --> 02:29:18,717
that have, I think, done so quite well.
2435
02:29:18,766 --> 02:29:23,203
And there are a few examples
of large-scale libertarian revolutions
2436
02:29:23,246 --> 02:29:25,760
which were largely anarchist in their structure.
2437
02:29:25,806 --> 02:29:29,640
As to the first, small societies,
extending over a long period,
2438
02:29:29,686 --> 02:29:33,838
I myself think the most dramatic example
was perhaps the Israeli Kibbutzim,
2439
02:29:33,886 --> 02:29:37,003
which, for a long period -
it may or may not be true today -
2440
02:29:37,046 --> 02:29:39,480
really were constructed on anarchist principles.
2441
02:29:39,526 --> 02:29:41,835
That is, of direct worker control,
2442
02:29:41,886 --> 02:29:46,004
integration of agriculture, industry, service,
personal life,
2443
02:29:46,046 --> 02:29:50,244
on an egalitarian basis with direct and
quite active participation in self-management,
2444
02:29:50,286 --> 02:29:53,517
and were, I should think,
extraordinarily successful.
2445
02:29:53,566 --> 02:29:57,559
A good example
of a really large-scale anarchist revolution,
2446
02:29:57,606 --> 02:30:00,882
or largely anarchist revolution,
the best example to my knowledge,
2447
02:30:00,926 --> 02:30:03,394
is the Spanish Revolution in 1936.
2448
02:30:03,446 --> 02:30:06,563
In fact, you can't tell
what would have happened.
2449
02:30:06,606 --> 02:30:09,279
That anarchist revolution
was simply destroyed by force.
2450
02:30:09,326 --> 02:30:13,160
But during the period in which it was alive,
I think it was an inspiring testimony
2451
02:30:13,206 --> 02:30:16,596
to the ability of poor working people
2452
02:30:16,646 --> 02:30:21,959
to organise and manage their affairs extremely
successfully, without coercion or control.
2453
02:30:22,006 --> 02:30:26,079
How far does the success of libertarian
socialism or anarchism as a way of life
2454
02:30:26,126 --> 02:30:28,845
really depend on a fundamental change
2455
02:30:28,886 --> 02:30:34,199
in the nature of man,
both in his motivation, his altruism,
2456
02:30:34,246 --> 02:30:36,965
and also in his knowledge and sophistication?
2457
02:30:37,006 --> 02:30:38,678
I think it not only depends on it
2458
02:30:38,726 --> 02:30:43,322
but, in fact, the whole purpose of libertarian
socialism is that it will contribute to it.
2459
02:30:43,366 --> 02:30:47,484
It will contribute to a spiritual transformation.
2460
02:30:47,526 --> 02:30:50,563
Precisely that kind of great transformation
2461
02:30:50,606 --> 02:30:53,678
in the way humans conceive of themselves
2462
02:30:53,726 --> 02:30:57,605
and their ability to act, to decide,
2463
02:30:57,646 --> 02:30:59,318
to create, to produce, to enquire.
2464
02:30:59,366 --> 02:31:02,244
Precisely that spiritual transformation that...
2465
02:31:02,286 --> 02:31:05,164
social thinkers from the Let-Marxist tradition,
2466
02:31:05,206 --> 02:31:09,916
from Luxemburg, say, on over through
anarcho-syndicalists, have emphasised.
2467
02:31:09,966 --> 02:31:13,800
So, on the one hand,
it requires that spiritual transformation.
2468
02:31:13,846 --> 02:31:18,681
But also, its purpose is to create institutions
which will contribute to that transformation.
2469
02:31:23,486 --> 02:31:27,479
INTERVIEWER: You've written that,
in looking at contributions of gited thinkers,
2470
02:31:27,526 --> 02:31:30,643
one must make sure
to understand their contributions,
2471
02:31:30,686 --> 02:31:33,120
but also to eliminate the errors in them.
2472
02:31:34,326 --> 02:31:38,365
And, of your ideas, what would you guess
would be discarded
2473
02:31:38,406 --> 02:31:40,044
and what would be assimilated
2474
02:31:40,086 --> 02:31:41,644
by future thinkers?
2475
02:31:41,686 --> 02:31:45,156
Well, I would assume
virtually everything would be discarded.
2476
02:31:45,206 --> 02:31:46,844
For example...
2477
02:31:46,886 --> 02:31:49,036
Here, we have to distinguish.
2478
02:31:49,086 --> 02:31:51,554
The work that I do in my professional area...
2479
02:31:51,606 --> 02:31:55,565
If I still believed what I believed ten years ago,
I'd assume the field is dead.
2480
02:31:55,606 --> 02:31:58,916
So I assume,
next time you read a student's paper,
2481
02:31:58,966 --> 02:32:03,244
you're going to see something that has to be
changed and you continue to make progress.
2482
02:32:03,286 --> 02:32:05,720
In dealing with social and political issues,
2483
02:32:05,766 --> 02:32:10,157
in my view, what is at all understood
is pretty straightforward.
2484
02:32:10,206 --> 02:32:14,438
There may be deep and complicated things.
But, if so, they're not understood.
2485
02:32:16,486 --> 02:32:21,685
The basic... To the extent that we understand
society at all, it's pretty straightforward.
2486
02:32:21,726 --> 02:32:25,958
And I don't think those simple understandings
are likely to undergo much change.
2487
02:32:26,006 --> 02:32:27,997
The point is that you have to work.
2488
02:32:28,046 --> 02:32:31,800
That's why
the propaganda system is so successful.
2489
02:32:31,846 --> 02:32:35,805
Very few people are going to have
the time or the energy or the commitment
2490
02:32:35,846 --> 02:32:39,043
to carry out the constant battle that's required
2491
02:32:39,086 --> 02:32:41,759
to get outside of, you know...
2492
02:32:41,806 --> 02:32:43,398
MacNeil/Lehrer
2493
02:32:43,446 --> 02:32:46,040
or Dan Rather, somebody like that.
2494
02:32:46,086 --> 02:32:49,874
The easy thing to do... You come home
from work, you're tired, have had a busy day.
2495
02:32:49,926 --> 02:32:53,202
You're not going to spend the evening
carrying out a research project.
2496
02:32:53,246 --> 02:32:55,714
So you turn on the tube
and say it's probably right.
2497
02:32:55,766 --> 02:32:59,076
You look at the headlines in the paper
and then you watch the sports.
2498
02:32:59,126 --> 02:33:03,438
And that's basically the way
the system of indoctrination works.
2499
02:33:03,486 --> 02:33:06,876
Sure, the other stuff is there,
but you're going to have to work to find it.
2500
02:33:08,366 --> 02:33:10,561
Modern industrial civilisation
2501
02:33:10,606 --> 02:33:15,396
has developed within a certain system
of convenient myths.
2502
02:33:15,446 --> 02:33:19,200
The driving force
of modern industrial civilisation
2503
02:33:19,246 --> 02:33:21,840
has been individual material gain,
2504
02:33:21,886 --> 02:33:25,481
which is accepted as legitimate,
even praiseworthy,
2505
02:33:25,526 --> 02:33:32,204
on the grounds that private vices yield
public benefits in the classic formulation.
2506
02:33:32,246 --> 02:33:35,875
Now, it's long been understood very well
2507
02:33:35,926 --> 02:33:38,804
that a society that is based on this principle
2508
02:33:38,846 --> 02:33:41,155
will destroy itself in time.
2509
02:33:41,206 --> 02:33:43,117
It can only persist
2510
02:33:43,166 --> 02:33:46,397
with whatever suffering and injustice it entails,
2511
02:33:46,446 --> 02:33:49,006
as long as it's possible to pretend
2512
02:33:49,046 --> 02:33:53,756
that the destructive forces that humans create
are limited,
2513
02:33:53,806 --> 02:33:58,960
that the world is an infinite resource
and that the world is an infinite garbage can.
2514
02:34:00,286 --> 02:34:02,277
At this stage of history,
2515
02:34:02,326 --> 02:34:05,636
either one of two things is possible.
2516
02:34:05,686 --> 02:34:10,362
Either the general population
will take control of its own destiny
2517
02:34:10,406 --> 02:34:14,365
and will concern itself with community interests,
2518
02:34:14,406 --> 02:34:19,764
guided by values of solidarity and sympathy
and concern for others.
2519
02:34:19,806 --> 02:34:24,675
Or, alternatively, there will be no destiny
for anyone to control.
2520
02:34:24,726 --> 02:34:28,844
As long as some specialised class is
in a position of authority,
2521
02:34:28,886 --> 02:34:33,164
it is going to set policy
in the special interests that it serves.
2522
02:34:33,206 --> 02:34:37,199
But the conditions of survival, let alone justice,
2523
02:34:37,246 --> 02:34:42,081
require rational social planning
in the interests of the community as a whole.
2524
02:34:42,126 --> 02:34:44,401
By now, that means the global community.
2525
02:34:45,806 --> 02:34:49,765
The question is whether privileged elites
should dominate mass communication
2526
02:34:49,806 --> 02:34:53,515
and should use this power
as they tell us they must -
2527
02:34:53,566 --> 02:34:56,000
namely, to impose necessary illusions,
2528
02:34:56,046 --> 02:34:58,685
to manipulate and deceive the "stupid majority",
2529
02:34:58,726 --> 02:35:01,081
and remove them from the public arena.
2530
02:35:01,126 --> 02:35:02,639
The question, in brief,
2531
02:35:02,686 --> 02:35:06,474
is whether democracy and freedom
are values to be preserved
2532
02:35:06,526 --> 02:35:08,118
or threats to be avoided.
2533
02:35:08,166 --> 02:35:11,920
In this possibly terminal phase
of human existence,
2534
02:35:11,966 --> 02:35:15,402
democracy and freedom
are more than values to be treasured.
2535
02:35:15,446 --> 02:35:17,755
They may well be essential to survival.
2536
02:35:17,806 --> 02:35:19,205
Thank you.
2537
02:35:19,246 --> 02:35:20,440
(Applause)
2538
02:35:22,886 --> 02:35:26,162
METCALF:
He's up there thinking for himself.
2539
02:35:26,206 --> 02:35:32,236
And he's deciphering this tremendously
overweighted body of information,
2540
02:35:32,286 --> 02:35:35,358
which he puts into an order
2541
02:35:35,406 --> 02:35:37,795
and gives you the feeling
2542
02:35:37,846 --> 02:35:41,043
that you can do the same thing,
that the whole thing is decipherable.
2543
02:35:41,086 --> 02:35:43,884
And he also gives you the sense
that there is a source,
2544
02:35:43,926 --> 02:35:45,917
there is a centre to the...
2545
02:35:47,406 --> 02:35:49,044
...to a dissenting population,
2546
02:35:49,086 --> 02:35:51,202
although we feel that there's no centre.
2547
02:35:52,846 --> 02:35:56,805
And I think that is what reactivated in me...
2548
02:35:58,806 --> 02:36:02,242
...a desire to get back...
2549
02:36:02,286 --> 02:36:07,918
get reacquainted with the political scene
ater 30 years of alienation from it.
2550
02:36:09,686 --> 02:36:12,405
You do hundreds of interviews and lectures.
2551
02:36:12,446 --> 02:36:15,643
And you're dealing with massacres
in East Timor
2552
02:36:15,686 --> 02:36:18,484
and invasions of Panama, etc.
2553
02:36:18,526 --> 02:36:20,437
Pretty horrific stuff- death squads.
2554
02:36:20,486 --> 02:36:23,558
What keeps you going?
Don't you get burned out on this material?
2555
02:36:27,126 --> 02:36:31,085
It's mainly a matter of whether you can look
yourself in the mirror, I think.
2556
02:36:32,326 --> 02:36:34,362
GUARD: Got to go,
2557
02:36:34,406 --> 02:36:38,524
- get these people into town.
- Maybe you could say, "All aboard", for us?
2558
02:36:41,206 --> 02:36:42,525
All aboard!
2559
02:36:46,326 --> 02:36:47,361
Bye-bye!
2560
02:36:47,406 --> 02:36:49,158
Bye!
2561
02:37:15,766 --> 02:37:17,165
(Beep)
2562
02:37:17,206 --> 02:37:18,924
No, couldn't see it!
2563
02:37:18,966 --> 02:37:21,434
Just hit the microphone.
2564
02:37:21,486 --> 02:37:24,125
Thank you. Goodbye, Canada.
Goodbye, Canada.
2565
02:37:24,166 --> 02:37:25,155
Bye!
2566
02:37:28,926 --> 02:37:31,486
I think I've gone past the hour
that you agreed to.
2567
02:37:31,526 --> 02:37:34,165
In your introduction,
you said that he's from Harvard.
2568
02:37:34,206 --> 02:37:35,719
Oh, I heard that.
2569
02:37:35,766 --> 02:37:38,326
Oh, yes, that is true. We'll bleep it.
2570
02:37:38,366 --> 02:37:41,802
Sorry about making you answer that
in such a short time!
2571
02:37:41,846 --> 02:37:43,962
It worked. Did we hit it in two minutes?
2572
02:37:44,006 --> 02:37:48,716
Well, we did pretty well, actually.
That means less sports and that's fine with me.
2573
02:37:51,086 --> 02:37:55,398
The people don't know what's going on.
If the people knew what you say here today,
2574
02:37:55,446 --> 02:37:56,925
they'd happily change.
2575
02:37:56,966 --> 02:37:58,160
Thank you.
2576
02:37:59,246 --> 02:38:02,636
On that optimistic note, Professor Chomsky,
thank you very much indeed.
2577
02:38:03,406 --> 02:38:05,795
So, how did it go?
2578
02:38:05,846 --> 02:38:09,156
I thought it was sort of technical-sounding.
2579
02:38:09,206 --> 02:38:10,400
But...
2580
02:38:11,326 --> 02:38:13,556
There wasn't much of a rhythm.
2581
02:38:13,606 --> 02:38:17,042
- Did you ever think of running for President?
(Laughter)
2582
02:38:17,086 --> 02:38:20,556
If I ran for President, the first thing I'd do
is tell people not to vote for me.
2583
02:38:25,846 --> 02:38:27,882
This guy's got to go home, he really does.
2584
02:38:27,926 --> 02:38:31,714
And people still believe
the politics of the world changes.
2585
02:38:31,766 --> 02:38:33,597
- Why don't you let him go home?
- Thanks.
2586
02:38:34,000 --> 02:38:37,058
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